What happens to Truman if he didn’t use the atomic bomb?

Truman deserves a lot of blame in how tense things immediately became between the US and the Soviets post war.

I'm no fan of Truman, but . . . the chap in the Kremlin at the time had to be the most paranoid world leader of the 20th century.

Truman was more skeptical of Stalin than FDR was, but he certainly didn't exit the war as one of the true cold warriors.
 
It would prove to be a hypothetical to be debated by history buffs. No one would know if it would've ended the war, people still debate the question if the deciding event was the Soviet Invasion of Manchuria, or the Bomb that broke the Japanese deadlock. One thing is now clear, Olympic was an unlikely event, the war was going to end before it would be launched.

I would ask on what basis you claim the war would end before Downfall and related operations could move ahead. As to the bomb? Perception is reality. Even the prospect of there having been a weapon which could have saved potentially hundreds of thousands of lives and the President chose not to use it would be enough for many Americans to demand his head.
 
The @History Learner has long argued (relying in part on David Glantz's work) that the Japanese Army in Manchuria was in anything but a state of shocking collapse on August 14. (I'm flagging him so he can make the case again if he likes.) Myself, I'm somewhere more in between: Glantz makes a not unreasonable case that the Japanese put up a stronger resistance, and inflicted much heavier casualties on the Soviets, than is commonly assumed, and progress was likely to be slower as the Soviets reached the main Japanese "bastion" in central Manchukuo. It could be enough of a fight to at least give some encouragement to hardliners in Tokyo, even if the final outcome is not (in my view, at least) really in doubt.

It is hard to game out, honestly, since the political ad social dynamics in Japan become less and less predictable as the war drags on. The war wouldn't end in August, and I have serious doubts it would end before November. But again, there is also the risk, which kept some people in Washington awake at night, that there might not be one person to offer a surrender by November, as the situation deteriorated.

A lot of my knowledge comes from BobTheBarbarian, who unfortunately appears to have gone long term inactive. To quote from the U.S. Army's JM-155 monograph, based on Post-War analysis of Japanese records:

"The loss of effectiveness had not been accompanied, however, by an equal loss of morale, for although the Soviet Army accomplished its objective of defeating the Kwantung Army it did not do so in a true military sense, since the Kwantung Army--much of it still intact--did not surrender because of military necessity but at the command of the Japanese emperor."​

The Soviets likewise concurred, as S.M. Shtemenko's "The Soviet General Staff at War" states, on page 354:

"To precipitate a real surrender and prevent unnecessary bloodshed, it was decided to land airborne forces at key points in the enemy's lines - Harbin, Kirin, Mukden, Changchun, and some other cities of Manchuria and Korea. After 17:00 hours on August 18th aircraft carrying the first group of 120 airborne troops under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel Zabelin took off from Horol and set course for Harbin. This force had the task of seizing the aerodrome and other important military installations, protecting the bridges on the Sungari and holding them until the main forces of the First Far Eastern Front arrived. With the first echelon of the airborne force was Major-General G.A. Shelakhov, the Front's deputy chief of staff, who had been appointed special representative of the Military Council. His duties were to present a surrender ultimatum to the command of the Japanese forces in Harbin and dictate its terms to them. We had no precise information about the situation of the city and the Soviet Consulate there. All we knew was that the main forces of the First Front of the Kwantung Army were falling back on Harbin after their defeat at Mutanchiang. They formed a very considerable force."​

The First Area Army was the most battered of the Kwantung Army, so the fact the Soviets acknowledge their still potent combat abilities is notable. Overall, me and Obsessed in another thread are actually debating/discussing this right now; we've argued it enough we might as well get to the bottom of it lol. He's discovered forward elements of the Soviet Trans-Baikal Front had reached the Bohai Sea just as the surrender came into effect, cutting off reinforcements from the China Expedition Army but, on the other hand, is finding trouble to suggest any deep supply issues the Kwantung Army was suffering.
 
I don't really see how harder resistance really does anything to change the strategic calculus. Soviet forces did push into Manchuria and were making progress in August. However tough the Japanese resistance was it doesn't change the facts on the ground.

Because that was to the Japanese plan. To quote Glantz:

The Japanese High Command's difficulty in maintaining the strength and readiness posture of its force structure had a significant impact on Japanest, strategic and operational planning. As the Kwantung Army weakened, planning shifted from the offense (before 1944) to realistic defense (in September 1944) and ultimately to acceptance of the need to delay on the borders and defend deeper in Manchuria (in 1945). Japanese acquiescence in a new strategy of delay followed by defense became apparent in May 1945. Kwantung Army headquarters drafted new plans incorporating Fabian tactics and distributed those plans to area armies in June 1945_17​
The May-June plans provided for delay at the borders and subsequent defense of successive positions, culminating in a final defense in a redoubt stronghold constructed in the Tunghua area (see map 12). According to this plan, the First Area Army would delay with platoon- to battalion-size elements occupying fortifications on the eastern border. The main force of divisions and brigades would occupy defensive positions forty to seventy kilometers to the rear, in the vicinity of the cities of Fangcheng, Chihsing, Tachienchang, Lotzokou, and Tumen. The plan provided for main force units to withdraw to new positions at Tunghua and Antu before they became decisively engaged (see map 13).​
The Third Area Army would use companies and battalions to delay the Soviet advance through the fortified zone running from Handagai to Wuchakou on the western border. Main force divisions would avoid decisive battle by withdrawing eastward through a series of defensive positions. The first defensive line stretched from Mukden to Changchun, and the final position extended from Huanjen through Hsinpin to Chinchuan in the redoubt area of Tunghua. The 4th Separate Army planned to delay at the border fortifications in northwest Manchuria and along the rail line through the Grand Khingan Mountains, to defend a line from Pokotu through Nencheng to Peian, and ultimately to withdraw to Tsitsihar and Harbin to join the main Kwantung Army forces (see map 14).​
According to these plans, roughly one-third of the Japanese force would deploy in the border region with the remaining two-thirds concentrated in operational depth to create the series of defensive lines. The Japanese hoped that rough terrain, long distances, and determined opposition would take their toll on the Soviets, eroding Soviet strength to the point of exhaustion by the time they reached the redoubt area, where the Japanese could check the Soviet advance and perhaps even counterattack. The immediate problem for the Japanese in the summer of 1945 was to effect the unit redeployments needed to implement the plan, and to complete the required fortification and construction program. Both the redeployment and the fortification programs were still incomplete when the Soviet offensive began.​
 
Why invade Japan when you could starve them into submission? In the absence of the a-bomb use, I think simple starvation would start to look better than invasion. As far as Truman goes, he’s political toast.

Largely because JCS realized American morale could not hold on for that long and that they realized-and confirmed after the surrender with studies-that mass starvation was not on the cards. 7-10 Million dying from spot famine was found to be the likely end result, by the start of 1947, not total collapse or anything the hardliners couldn't take; these numbers aren't far off from what the Soviets endured, after all.
 
I seem to remember reading somewhere that by August 1st the Allied command was mostly against an invasion. Was it McArthur that was in favor?

Franks made the argument in his 1999 book, but Gianreco refuted it with newer research; basically, Franks misread some telegraph documents. From Chapter 6 of Hell To Pay:

The president’s meeting with the JCS and service secretaries took place before one of the recipients of Truman’s directive, Stimson, had submitted a written response. It was not until after the meeting and several drafts that Stimson wrote, “The terrain, much of which I have visited several times, has left the impression on my memory of being one which would be susceptible to a last ditch defense such as has been made on Iwo Jima and Okinawa and which of course is very much larger than either of those two areas. . . . We shall in my opinion have to go through a more bitter finish fight than in Germany [and] we shall incur the losses incident to such a war.” 57 At the Monday meeting all the participants agreed that an invasion of the Home Islands would be extremely costly but that it was essential for the defeat of Imperial Japan.

Further:

Continued discussion touched on military considerations and the merits of unconditional surrender, and the president moved to wrap up the meeting: “The President reiterated that his main reason for this conference with the Chiefs of Staff was his desire to know definitely how far we could afford to go in the Japanese campaign. He was clear on the situation now and was quite sure that the Joint Chiefs of Staff should proceed with the Kyushu operation” and expressed the hope that “there was a possibility of preventing an Okinawa from one end of Japan to the other.”​

All of this from June of 1945. As for the August situation with King and Nimitz:

CINCPAC Command Summary, bk. 7, p. 3510. Even though all of these messages were sent “Eyes Only,” which meant that they, and any copies, were not to be filed with routine message traffic but, instead, were subject to a higher level of security, some later observers have attached additional, and frequently conspiratorial, meaning to the term. For example, Bernstein, not understanding how message traffic was handled and routed, finds significance in King not personally instructing Nimitz to insert the classification into a message, and thinks that King is allowing a series of supposedly back-channel communications to be seen by MacArthur and thus, Bernstein supposes, “produce a near crisis” when MacArthur saw them (see below). In fact, when the initial message in an exchange was tagged “Eyes Only,” all subsequent messages in the exchange simply repeated the classification. Bernstein apparently did not realize, first, that all parties’ headquarters had been receiving the communications from the start (see note 25 above), and, second, that the classification has to do with how the message is handled and filed. As a result Bernstein perceives dark motives behind Admiral King’s request that Nimitz send comments on MacArthur’s reply to both him and MacArthur, mistaking routine message traffic for an attempt by King to goad MacArthur into a confrontation over supposed Navy opposition to invading Japan.
Having Nimitz put MacArthur specifically on an “information line” as was done here ensures that the message was seen by MacArthur personally in case the exchange of messages was only being reviewed by his chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Richard K. Sutherland. (It is noteworthy that intra-Army communications were handled slightly differently and had their own problems in this regard. For example, earlier that summer General Marshall, when soliciting MacArthur’s opinion of possible casualties during Olympic ahead of a hastily called meeting with the president, quickly recognized that his questions had been routed to either Sutherland or MacArthur’s G-3, Gen. Stephen J. Chamberlain. This forced Marshall to shoot back a request for clarification, but this time, instead of from “Washington” to Headquarters AFPAC and signed “Marshall,” it was from “General Marshall” to “General MacArthur (Personal).” See Giangreco, “Casualty Projections,” 545-50.) King did not direct that Nimitz put MacArthur on the addressee line—the “action line” requiring a response— and the search by some for hidden meaning to King’s order requires one to believe that King was engaging in subtleties not characteristic of his well documented dealings with the Navy’s sister service and his subordinates.
Bernstein maintains, however, that “King’s decision not to restrict Nimitz’s reply to an ‘eyes only to King’ message is significant. Sending a copy of Nimitz’s message to MacArthur, if Nimitz’s assessment was negative (as would have seemed likely), could produce a bureaucratic conflict in the Pacific and difficulty in Washington.” Bernstein, after stating that King had “suppressed” Nimitz’s message from several months earlier expressing reservations about Olympic, then proposed that King “seemed to be triggering events that were likely to produce a near crisis” (Bernstein, “Alarming Japanese Buildup,” 587–88). Unfortunately, Frank (Downfall, 276) apparently examined copies of the exchange that did not include the transmissions’ addressee and information lines which led him to similarly miss that all parties were being kept abreast of their exchange, as per interservice protocol, and that King wisely wished to ensure that Nimitz’s response would be read by MacArthur, not just his chief of staff.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
No, sorry, I'm not having this. Half a million American soldier were not going to die if we didn't use the nukes. Read American Prometheus or something. There were already plans to schedule peace talks with Japan for surrender. There were plans to either have members of the Japanese government observe a bomb test to threaten them with a show of force, or to drop a single nuke on an explicitly-military target. There was absolutely no excuse to drop two nuclear weapons on civilian population centers and Truman and all of his advisors should have been charged for war crimes. It was a show of force to get the Japanese to surrender to us before they surrendered to the Soviets, and an attempted power play against Stalin that didn't work because all it did was make Stalin want some nukes of his own. The fact that Truman was a virulent racist who hated Asians probably made the whole thing a bonus for him.

Really, though, I'm not shocked that everyone and their mother on this forum is jumping in here to insist that using nuclear weapons on civilian populations was the best and right thing to do, and that not using them would have just made the world worse. This place has a fetish for genocide, misery, and bloodshed. It's why there's a hundred thousand "What if the Nazis won" or "How evil can Stalin be?" or "How long could we go without freeing the slaves" or "How would you, personally, exterminate [Ethnicity X]?" threads for every three or five "What if the US never had slavery" or "What if we didn't fuck up the middle east" threads. And whenever those threads do get made, nine times out of ten they're written off as "Utopian" or "Naive" or "boring". Like we need to accept that we're living in the best of all possible timelines, or that things suck, sure, but they could have been so much worse, so shut the fuck up already. Like trying to even imagine a better world is intellectually inferior, that the only good use of your time is to imagine how much worse things could be. Or, perhaps more accurately, how much worse they could be for everyone else.
Actually most of the members here do not support genocide. In fact it is pretty much a direct insult to even imply otherwise.

If you are as unhappy here as your message indicates there is nothing forcing you to stay. Just message a Mod and we will be more than willing to Ban you from the site.

For now, however, you are kicked for a week for insulting, well, just about everybody here.
 
I'm no fan of Truman, but . . . the chap in the Kremlin at the time had to be the most paranoid world leader of the 20th century.

Truman was more skeptical of Stalin than FDR was, but he certainly didn't exit the war as one of the true cold warriors.
The problem is that Truman was totally unprepared to be president. He was uneducated and had little practical useful experience. FDR had even purposely kept him ignorant about what was happening in the US government. The man was chosen to just sit there and do nothing because FDR needed a compromise choice for his VP. He ended up being a president who needed to make very important decisions he had no real understanding of. Which is what lead to stuff like doing the Marshall plan unilaterally or initially calling for the strike leaders of 46 to be tried as traitors and hung.
 
Last edited:
"Instead of using the bomb, Truman could have taken up Japan's conditional offer for a postwar constitutional monarchy or awaited the impact of Soviet entry into the Pacific theater, while continuing and even increasing the lethal firebombings of Japanese cities and the strangling naval blockade of its ports.

It is a myth the Japanese were offering peace under the terms they got IOTL:

"The most often repeated condemnation of American diplomacy in the summer of 1945 is that policy makers understood that a promise to retain the Imperial institution was essential to end the war, and that had the United States communicated such a promise, the Suzuki cabinet would likely have promptly surrendered. The answer to this assertion is enshrined in black and white in the July 22 edition of the Magic Diplomatic Summary. There, American policy makers could read for themselves that Ambassador Sato had advised Foreign Minister Togo that the best terms Japan could hope to secure were unconditional surrender, modified only to the extent that the Imperial institution could be retained. Presented by his own ambassador with this offer, Togo expressly rejected it. Given this, there is no rational prospect that such an offer would have won support from any of the other live members of the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War. - (Frank 1999, p. 239)"​
"As historian Robert Butow pointed out in 1954, the fate of Japan rested in the hands of only eight men. These were the emperor, his principal advisor Marquis Koichi Kido, and an inner cabinet of the government of Admiral Kantaro Suzuki called the "Big Six": Prime Minister Suzuki, Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo, Army Minister General Korechika Anami, Navy Minister Admiral Mitsumasa Yonai, Chief of the Army General Staff General Yoshijiro Umezu, and Chief of the Navy General Staff Admiral Soemu Toyoda."​
"There is no record whatsoever that any of these eight men proposed a set of terms or circumstances in which Japan would capitulate prior to Hiroshima. More significantly, none of these men even after the war claimed that there was any set of terms of circumstances that would have prompted Japan to surrender prior to Hiroshima. The evidence available shows that in June, a memorandum from Kido to the emperor proposed that the emperor intervene not to surrender, but to initiate mediation by a third party. The mediation would look to settle the war on terms that echoed the Treaty of Versailles: Japan might have to give up its overseas conquests and experience disarmament for a time, but the old order in Japan would remain in charge. Certainly there would be no occupation and no internal reform. - (Richard B. Frank 2009)"​
 

See my post at https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...e-the-atomic-bomb.494091/page-2#post-20895705 I don't think he's saying that allowing Japan to keep the Emperor would have led to surrender at the time of the bombings but that combined with other developments (including the Soviet entry into the war, additional conventional bombing, etc.) it could have led them to surrender subsequently without the A-bomb and without a US invasion. But of course the question is "when." Bernstein himself makes it clear that he doesn't think Truman or any other president could afford any substantial delay, since that would involve additional US casualties even without an invasion.
 
See my post at https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/what-happens-to-truman-if-he-didn’t-use-the-atomic-bomb.494091/page-2#post-20895705 I don't think he's saying that allowing Japan to keep the Emperor would have led to surrender at the time of the bombings but that combined with other developments (including the Soviet entry into the war, additional conventional bombing, etc.) it could have led them to surrender subsequently without the A-bomb and without a US invasion. But of course the question is "when." Bernstein himself makes it clear that he doesn't think Truman or any other president could afford any substantial delay, since that would involve additional US casualties even without an invasion.

Given the militarists still attempted a coup against the Emperor himself, after two atomic detonations, Soviet entry, etc should put paid to any idea that there would be any "when" without the Emperor's intervention.
 
Given the militarists still attempted a coup against the Emperor himself, after two atomic detonations, Soviet entry, etc should put paid to any idea that there would be any "when" without the Emperor's intervention.

But an assurance that he could keep his throne could be one factor (along with the others Bernstein mentions) in eventually leading the Emperor to intervene even without the A-bombs or an invasion. I agree though that this would not have happened soon enough to make it politically possible for Truman to forego using the A-bombs.
 
Last edited:
But an assurance that he could keep his throne could be one factor (along with the others Bernstein mentions) in eventually leading the Emperor to intervene even without the A-bombs or an invasion. I agree though that this would nor have happened soon enough to make it politically possible for Truman to forego using the A-bombs.

The War Council was deadlocked even with the atomic bombings and Soviet entry, so I'm not sure what alternative strategies the Allies could've pursued prior to November. As it were, we know for a fact, as I already cited, that OLYMPIC was already well underway by August of 1945. Basically, Bernstein is expecting everyone to be exactly the 180 of how they were acting at the time.
 
Last edited:
The First Area Army was the most battered of the Kwantung Army, so the fact the Soviets acknowledge their still potent combat abilities is notable. Overall, me and Obsessed in another thread are actually debating/discussing this right now; we've argued it enough we might as well get to the bottom of it lol. He's discovered forward elements of the Soviet Trans-Baikal Front had reached the Bohai Sea just as the surrender came into effect, cutting off reinforcements from the China Expedition Army but, on the other hand, is finding trouble to suggest any deep supply issues the Kwantung Army was suffering.

Thanks for weighing in. :)

P.S. Now sneaking over to the Manchuria thread with my bowl of popcorn.
 
Let's also keep in mind the simple timeline of events:

First Bomb Dropped - Cabinet votes 4-2 to continue the war.
Soviets Declare War and then the Second Bomb is Dropped - Cabinet deadlocks at 3-3 to continue the war.
The Emperor then steps in and decides to end the war and one results of that is an attempted palace coup.

So even after two atomic bombs are dropped and the Russians join the war, the Cabinet still couldn't figure out that it was time to make peace and when the Emperor decided for them, so army officers decided to try and overthrow the man who they had been taught since birth was literally a god.

This timeline is too simplistic as it failed to reflect that the differing views between academics on when did the news reach the Supreme Council (not the full cabinet) on 9 Aug 2020.


Also, one need to taken into account that this series of events happened in a very quick pace in an era where the fastest way of information transmission is the radio/ telegram which was infrastructure reliant. Time/ information gap in the minds of the then decision-makers is an issue that historians/ political scientists/ strategic stuides scholars/ IR scholars should keep in mind when studying the past.

One key issue that the Japanese decision makers faced was whether protracted nuclear bombing was likely.

As for the coup, the junior officers were certainly not trying to overthrow the Emperor and I wonder what's your source. The "Kyūjō incident", like its precedents "226 Incident" and all those attempted coups in the 1930s, was aimed at those "treasonous advisers" who misled the Emperor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyūjō_incident
 

Jack Brisco

Banned
You think facts will matter to a million dead mothers, all they'll know is there could've been multiple sunrises on Japan that either fries the nips or causes them to surrender.

Can see thousands of relatives of dead soldiers storming the White House and riding Truman out of town on a rail.
 
The War Council was deadlocked even with the atomic bombings and Soviet entry, so I'm not sure what alternative strategies the Allies could've pursued prior to November. As it were, we know for a fact, as I already cited, that OLYMPIC was already well underway by August of 1945. Basically, Bernstein is expecting everyone to be exactly the 180 of how they were acting at the time.

If you're talking about Imperial intervention, I would think that assuring the Emperor that he can keep his throne if Japan surrenders promptly would be one way of encouraging it! I agree that even Imperial intervention plus the Soviet entry into the war would probably not be enough to produce a prompt surrender, and whether combined with more conventional bombing, further Soviet military progress (and we can debate how much of that there would be and how soon) , it would have been enough to produce an eventual surrender without an invasion is irrelevant since--as Bernstein points out-- it would not be politically possible for Truman to prolong the war unnecessarily. I really don't intend to go on in this thread, since my point all along has been that it was politically impossible for Truman to wait.
 
If you're talking about Imperial intervention, I would think that assuring the Emperor that he can keep his throne if Japan surrenders promptly would be one way of encouraging it! I agree that even Imperial intervention plus the Soviet entry into the war would probably not be enough to produce a prompt surrender, and whether combined with more conventional bombing, further Soviet military progress (and we can debate how much of that there would be and how soon) , it would have been enough to produce an eventual surrender without an invasion is irrelevant since--as Bernstein points out-- it would not be politically possible for Truman to prolong the war unnecessarily. I really don't intend to go on in this thread, since my point all along has been that it was politically impossible for Truman to wait.

Given that offer had already been extended and rejected in July, I fail to see how. As you say, however, your point is noted.
 
Given that offer had already been extended and rejected in July, I fail to see how. As you say, however, your point is noted.

I know this has been brought up a bunch, but waiting more then just a few weeks for Japan to surrender would lead to more deaths then killed in the bombings. According to Giancreco every month in the summer of 1945 400,000 civilians in China and French Indochina were being killed in the Japanese occupation. That means every day the US waits for a surrender that’s 13,300 civilians dying and that’s not even taking into account allied POWs. It was in everyone’s interest to end the war ASAP.
 
I know this has been brought up a bunch, but waiting more then just a few weeks for Japan to surrender would lead to more deaths then killed in the bombings. According to Giancreco every month in the summer of 1945 400,000 civilians in China and French Indochina were being killed in the Japanese occupation. That means every day the US waits for a surrender that’s 13,300 civilians dying and that’s not even taking into account allied POWs. It was in everyone’s interest to end the war ASAP.

Oh totally in agreement.
 
Top