What happens to India in a CP victory WWI scenario?

Specifically, in a scenario where Turkey still joins the CP and the indian auxiliaries are still given a chance to fight in the Entente side.
Could indian independence come earlier? And when it comes, will India's partition end up different?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
In this TL, I could see either Britain being more flexible with its empire (making concessions, being willing to support independence, et cetera) or doubling down and aggressively trying to keep its empire at all costs. Indeed, it depends on how World War I affects British attitudes and public opinion.

Also, in this TL, we could possible see the victorious Central Powers support Jinnah and his Muslim League in an attempt to expand their influence; after all, an independent Pakistan might be a more reliable ally for Pakistan than a united independent India would be.
 
It depends on how the war goes. Is it a quick CP victory, or a long war? How exhausted is Britain? Did German attempts to foment revolt amount to anything? What nations joined or didn't join the war and on what side? It all depends
 
It depends on how the war goes. Is it a quick CP victory, or a long war? How exhausted is Britain? Did German attempts to foment revolt amount to anything? What nations joined or didn't join the war and on what side? It all depends
Basically, i was thinking about a quick victory. Germany's invasion of France goes much less pear-shaped, and they are able to besiege Paris by 1915. Italy remains neutral. The ottomans, in an opportunistic move, declare war on the Entente, aiming at the Caucasus and eastern Arabia. I'd imagine the war to be over by late 1915. Germany manages to keep its overseas empire, and even expand its colonies in Africa by absorbing the Congo and parts of France's subsaharan holdings.
Indian troops, however, still fight in certain fronts. Seeming that their british overlords dragged them into an useless war, how would they act?
 

Wallet

Banned
Had the war lasted longer, India would have completely taken over the middle eastern theatre while the British troops would have been sent to Europe for the final offensive into Europe
 
What happens to the Italian, French and Russian navies? If Germany gets control over them, then India like the rest of the British Empire becomes German
 
If it's a quick victory, it will be seen as more a case of France being defeated than Britain due to the sizes of the armies involved. The B.E.F was tiny compare to those of France and Germany so with France defeated Britain has two choices, cut their losses and negotiate a settlement with the understanding that it's France that's thrown in the towel or as in WWII fight on alone. As the question is made about a quick war then it's all France's fault and no concessions need be made to India, or would really be expected. Britain is embarrassed but not discredited by the failure of its allies.
 
What happens to the Italian, French and Russian navies? If Germany gets control over them, then India like the rest of the British Empire becomes German

At most the Russian will hand over is 7 Battleships however OTL 2 did not survive the war and one entered service late in the war as its machinary was British and delayed for some reason (delayed indefinitely if the British thought she was going to become a German ship) - so the Germans depending on when events happen likely get 4 at most and some of these the Ganguts were never in great shape - not helped by being run aground on several occasions.

And its likely that the Russian Revolution will occur before any handover can happen so making any agreed handover unlikely

France has what - 4 Courbets and then the 3 Bretagne class ships - which entered service early 1916 - so possibly not finished if France is defeated early

None of these 14 ships comes close to a British Dreadnought of that period and even with all 14 the German fleet is still weaker than the Royal Navy.

So how does some or all of these ships being handed over make the British Empire become German?

Any German Victory has to be early before 2nd Ypres ideally earlier than that - perhaps the sickle cut works in 1914 - whatever.

I suspect that any such victory would be even early in the war likely 1914 and the results would look similar to 1870 - with the British being virtually unimpacted by the results outside of losses suffered by the initial BEF as the war ends before Kitchener's army and those of the Commonwealth can be fully raised and deployed.

No as Peg Leg Pom says - Britain Cuts its losses as it would have no choice as France would have thrown in the towel and I suspect that relations are pretty much normalised very quickly and any captured German Colonies handed back.

Very unlikely that the rest of the world takes much notice of another European spat.
 
As a direct result of a CP victory, no: Germany dosen't have the power projection to hit GB, and India is FAR too valuable to the British for them to consider offering to give up even part of it unless they absolutely have to. Even giving the CP the best regional circumstances (Say, the Princely States rebel in sufficent numbers, Afghanistan joins the war, ect.), the Indian Home Army is massive, and Britian could likely depend on greater loyalty if she allows them to stay and fight to defend the subcontinent only (As they'd been told was their only legal requirement). They can keep order there for a few years.

In the longer run... I can see a CP victory timeline in which Pan-Islamism gains greater prominence British rule being somewhat challenged. However, GB would also have a greater will and is likely to dedicate more of their Imperial power to maintaining control over the region if her position as global hegemon is being directly contested. She can't afford to lose the the crown jewel of the Empire and still be taken seriously, and so would only lose it in the event of a 2nd Great War in which she's trounced directly.
 
I don't think the CP have enough power projection to force the British to hand India on silver platter to Germany anyway, so India would stay British. But I could see Sultan Mehmed V playing the jihad card and call all muslim in India to rebel against the Brits.
 
Basically, i was thinking about a quick victory. Germany's invasion of France goes much less pear-shaped, and they are able to besiege Paris by 1915. Italy remains neutral. The ottomans, in an opportunistic move, declare war on the Entente, aiming at the Caucasus and eastern Arabia. I'd imagine the war to be over by late 1915. Germany manages to keep its overseas empire, and even expand its colonies in Africa by absorbing the Congo and parts of France's subsaharan holdings.
Indian troops, however, still fight in certain fronts. Seeming that their british overlords dragged them into an useless war, how would they act?
Okay then India probably stays British rather longer as Britain both is much less exhausted and has a chip on its shoulder
 
Basically, i was thinking about a quick victory. Germany's invasion of France goes much less pear-shaped, and they are able to besiege Paris by 1915. Italy remains neutral. The ottomans, in an opportunistic move, declare war on the Entente, aiming at the Caucasus and eastern Arabia. I'd imagine the war to be over by late 1915. Germany manages to keep its overseas empire, and even expand its colonies in Africa by absorbing the Congo and parts of France's subsaharan holdings.
Indian troops, however, still fight in certain fronts. Seeming that their british overlords dragged them into an useless war, how would they act?
That's not unlike the Summer War of my EDC, a relatively quick CP victory followed by a Russian collapse and and a grey-ish peace.
 
One thing is I think inevitable in this situation. The Entente Cordial is dead. Britain will put all the blame for the defeat on France as they were unable to withstand the German attack. France will blame Britain for not sending a large enough force to France. That this could have only been done by a mass deployment of the Indian army will be ignored while they blame everything on Perfidious Albion. Britain may try to retreat into splendid isolation from European entanglements. Not that that is really possible by then.
 
One thing is I think inevitable in this situation. The Entente Cordial is dead. Britain will put all the blame for the defeat on France as they were unable to withstand the German attack. France will blame Britain for not sending a large enough force to France. That this could have only been done by a mass deployment of the Indian army will be ignored while they blame everything on Perfidious Albion. Britain may try to retreat into splendid isolation from European entanglements. Not that that is really possible by then.

I think what was apparent fairly early on was the scope of German Mobilisation and the speed at which it was made.

Depending on what a early CP victory looks like I think that any long Plan would be to put 'great fekkin' bells on a new Haldane like plan for the British army in order to allow for faster mass mobilisation and a larger core of trained soldiers and while there is likely to be recriminations - who else but the French would the British ally with and vice versa? France would know the limits of teh Pre war British army so while there may be damning editorials in La Monde and also in the Daily mail both sides would be very sure who was to blame...Germany.

Unless of course the socio and political landscape change to that of a early common market or some such - Britain would still look to their closest neighbour and ultimately both would put their heads together and ask 'what went wrong' and 'how do we prevent it from happening again?'

I dont see the UK going Isolationist - it cannot afford to

And post a 1914/15 defeat - what sort of Government does France get? For that matter what sort of Government does the UK get?
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
At most the Russian will hand over is 7 Battleships however OTL 2 did not survive the war and one entered service late in the war as its machinary was British and delayed for some reason (delayed indefinitely if the British thought she was going to become a German ship) - so the Germans depending on when events happen likely get 4 at most and some of these the Ganguts were never in great shape - not helped by being run aground on several occasions.

And its likely that the Russian Revolution will occur before any handover can happen so making any agreed handover unlikely

France has what - 4 Courbets and then the 3 Bretagne class ships - which entered service early 1916 - so possibly not finished if France is defeated early

None of these 14 ships comes close to a British Dreadnought of that period and even with all 14 the German fleet is still weaker than the Royal Navy.

So how does some or all of these ships being handed over make the British Empire become German?

Any German Victory has to be early before 2nd Ypres ideally earlier than that - perhaps the sickle cut works in 1914 - whatever.

I suspect that any such victory would be even early in the war likely 1914 and the results would look similar to 1870 - with the British being virtually unimpacted by the results outside of losses suffered by the initial BEF as the war ends before Kitchener's army and those of the Commonwealth can be fully raised and deployed.

No as Peg Leg Pom says - Britain Cuts its losses as it would have no choice as France would have thrown in the towel and I suspect that relations are pretty much normalised very quickly and any captured German Colonies handed back.

Very unlikely that the rest of the world takes much notice of another European spat.

You also have the problem over who is going to man these ships?

The German Navy had no vast reservoir of trained men they could call on, unlike the Army which had the reserve formations (and unlike the British with their reservists and the merchant marine). Indeed they ran out of men by 1917 and the best officer and men started to abandon the High Seas Fleet to move into the U-Boat arm.

I doubt the French, Russians & Italians would be ready to man these ships on behalf of the Kaiser. And if they did, wouldn't any German admiral be a little anxious about having these as "allies" accompanying the German fleet?
 
In this TL, I could see either Britain being more flexible with its empire (making concessions, being willing to support independence, et cetera) or doubling down and aggressively trying to keep its empire at all costs. Indeed, it depends on how World War I affects British attitudes and public opinion.
I'd place money on the latter.
 
Combine both, The UK gives first autonomy then independence not merely to india and pakistan, but to a number of balakianised princely states by 1930
 
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