What happens to Bermuda and the Bahamas in the United States?

JJohnson

Banned
Let's say for the sake of argument that the United States in 1783 includes Bermuda and the Bahamas, recognized by the British, who cede the territory. What happens to those two places as part of the United States? Do they both become states? Remain territories?

And where can I find information on the population of those two islands around 1780?
 
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Kaptin Kurk

Banned
Let's say for the sake of argument that the United States in 1783 includes Bermuda and the Bahamas, recognized by the British, who cede the territory. What happens to those two places as part of the United States? Do they both become states? Remain territories?

And where can I find information on the population of those two islands around 1780?
We'd need to see some serious Naval action for this to be a possibility.
 

birdboy2000

Banned
I disagree on naval action being required. Even if Britain held the islands militarily, islands got traded in peace treaties in that era all the time. Now, senators from those islands (if they got statehood) would be very, very ambivalent about any war with Britain, and they'd be the first to be occupied, but that doesn't mean America couldn't get them in the first place.
 

Kaptin Kurk

Banned
I disagree on naval action being required. Even if Britain held the islands militarily, islands got traded in peace treaties in that era all the time. Now, senators from those islands (if they got statehood) would be very, very ambivalent about any war with Britain, and they'd be the first to be occupied, but that doesn't mean America couldn't get them in the first place.
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Problem is, this is still the "King Sugar" era, Britain would trade Canada at this time before a Carribbean island most likely. So, you're talking crushing defeat for a Carribbean island to be on the table, to the point of near ASB.
 
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Problem is, this is still the "King Sugar" era, Britain would trade Canada at this time before a Carribbean island most likely. So, you're talking crushing defeat for a Carribbean island to be on the table, to the point of near ASB.
Bermuda isn't in the Caribbean and didn't grow sugar.

It did have a Caribbean colony of its own in the Turks Islands, where a salt industry was based.

In OTL, Britain kept Bermuda because it was useful as a naval base. It's not ASB for Britain to decide it didn't need a base there, and that it was too much trouble maintaining a colony which would have preferred to have joined the US (which, in fact, most of the inhabitants really did want).
 
Does Britain really cry/struggle tooth and nail to even keep the islands if they, by the grace of God, lose them? I doubt it. If we're looking at pure profitability and overall strategical implication, Port Royal and Jamaica outscore both Bermuda and the Bahamas on these accounts. I'm sure by 1783 Port Royal was (surely) well developed as well...?
 
Bermuda ?!

You do realize Bermuda isn't a tropical Caribbean paradise and an economic/agricultural powerhouse, do you ? Why would the US need it ? For resupplying its trading and military ships ?
 
Does Britain really cry/struggle tooth and nail to even keep the islands if they, by the grace of God, lose them? I doubt it. If we're looking at pure profitability and overall strategical implication, Port Royal and Jamaica outscore both Bermuda and the Bahamas on these accounts. I'm sure by 1783 Port Royal was (surely) well developed as well...?
If we're looking at the British Empire, it's not going to give up either set unless it has to.
 
I'd think that either they're made into states, though as they both had very small populations, this would lead to a very different Northwest Ordinance which IOTL stated that only territories with populations of over 60,000 could be made into states, now that would be much, much smaller due to the Bahamas and Bermuda.


However, I personally think they'd be made into territories, or perhaps Bermuda is attached to Virginia and the Bahamas are later attached to Florida.
 

frlmerrin

Banned
What would happen if these islands were part of the USA depends in great part on how and why the first British Empire agrees to ceede them. In the case of the Bahamas a well supported American occupation and more localised American sea power in the GOM MIGHT result in the situation the OP wants with the British giving up the Bahamas as recovering them would be more trouble than it was worth. Bermuda on the other hand is a non-starter, a hairs breadth away from being ASB. In the age of sail it is a vital strategic asset insuring along with Halifax and Jamaica that in any future war with the USA the USN will be bottled up on the America coast. It is absolutely vital to the Royal Navy that they retain it, and as a department of state the Royal Navy have the clout to ensure the (British) politicians respect their wishes. The only way the British can be compelled to give up Bermuda is a complete naval defeat by a European adversary or economic collapse of Britain both of which are improbable events and neither guarantees that Bermuda ends up as part of the USA.
 
Hilariously, we're gonna see all the whiners ignore Bermuda nearly got captured by the USA twice - once in 1777, the other in 1779.

Or ignore the links between Bermuda and Virginia, cultural and economical and familial.

But hey, Britain uber alles, according to a lot of people in Before-1900.
 
Hilariously, we're gonna see all the whiners ignore Bermuda nearly got captured by the USA twice - once in 1777, the other in 1779.

Or ignore the links between Bermuda and Virginia, cultural and economical and familial.

But hey, Britain uber alles, according to a lot of people in Before-1900.
This guy :cool:
 
Hilariously, we're gonna see all the whiners ignore Bermuda nearly got captured by the USA twice - once in 1777, the other in 1779.

Or ignore the links between Bermuda and Virginia, cultural and economical and familial.

But hey, Britain uber alles, according to a lot of people in Before-1900.
Generalized insults! On Christmas Eve nonetheless! I definitely do not fit into this category! Bah humbug to you as well, good sir. ;)
 
Generalized insults! On Christmas Eve nonetheless! I definitely do not fit into this category! Bah humbug to you as well, good sir. ;)
DAMMIT.

Now you make me realize how douchey I was. Well, if I take a hit, I deserve it (no, no sarcasm. Really).

Bermuda's value really came after the Revolution when it was suddenly a far-more strategic target due to America now being under its own auspices. That all the island was snagged by an American frigate in 1777 and scared off only by a (almost-dead, worthless) British ship at Gun Point is ignored by many people, or not even known. Have the American frigate press on it could easily take the island.

In 1779 the island starved so bad that American privateers nearly took the island - but lost out in ten minutes to a British ship, HMS Delaware (oh irony) carrying both supplies and troops.

Should the Americans take Bermuda, the latent - and not so times latent, if the Gunpowder Incident of '75 is taken into consideration, or that Bermuda persuaded Congress to not blockade it - Patriot sympathies gaurantee that they'll likely keep it. Georgia isn't exactly part of Britain now, and yet it was reabsorbed during the ARW. So Bermuda, should Americans successfully capture it. An entire sister colony that would likely send representatives to Congress is not about to be abandoned by America.
 
DAMMIT.

Now you make me realize how douchey I was. Well, if I take a hit, I deserve it (no, no sarcasm. Really).
That was not my intention. Nor would I think it was yours. Perhaps just frustration that was voiced a bit too quickly. Nothing to beat yourself up over.

So Bermuda, should Americans successfully capture it. An entire sister colony that would likely send representatives to Congress is not about to be abandoned by America.
Would Bermuda eventually see statehood? What of slavery in this colony (how prevalent was it?) If this "colony" sends representatives to the American Congress, does that mean we would see less stringent requirements for statehood as they were originally outlined by the Founders?
 
That was not my intention. Nor would I think it was yours. Perhaps just frustration that was voiced a bit too quickly. Nothing to beat yourself up over.
Point! But I've been subtly aggravated/aggressive for the past month, which was a pretty crappy one. That I've been called out, even unintentionally, is a needed wake-up call to not take it out on people at a place I enjoy being at nor my standing in it. I genuinely thank you.

Would Bermuda eventually see statehood? What of slavery in this colony (how prevalent was it?) If this "colony" sends representatives to the American Congress, does that mean we would see less stringent requirements for statehood as they were originally outlined by the Founders?
Bermuda is a slave colony and a 'southern colony' in any event and will follow Virginia's route. And as Virginia eventually followed the growing Deep South's power post-1812...

As for statehood, it will sign on to the Declaration/Constitution and be a state, however low its population. I believe Delaware had a less-than-60,000 population at the time and yet was treated entirely as its own state, so there's no reason for Bermuda not to be. However, it won't affect the statehood requirements...after all, Delaware and certain New England states are terribly small but didn't affect the views of the west in terms of statehood size and population.
 
Bermuea now is ~70,000 in population and many thousands more because of tourism. I could see it becoming a state, albiet one that makes RI look like Texas in comparison. Plus, I'm sure there'll be many butterflies with it and the Bahamas in US hands...
 

frlmerrin

Banned
Hilariously one notes that the USA never succeeded in capturing Bermuda, ever.

There is a considerable difference between suggesting that the USN was a very minor threat to British naval supremacy in the 19th century (it was on a par with the threat of China to British trade or piracy in the Indian Ocean and considerably less of a threat than new French and Russian naval construction in the mid-century) and suggesting Britain uber alles. The hard fact in naval terms is however that it was indeed pretty much Britain uber alles from no later than 1805 to at least 1914 no matter how un-hilariously whiney Umbric Man may find it.
 
Interesting. I wonder how keeping this island would pan out into the War of 1812 and into the American Civil War proper. A Confederate Bermuda? Interesting. Nonetheless, I doubt the course of Bermuda's allegiance in history - whether it decides to join the U.S. or stay with Britain - does relatively little to effect the course of human affairs.
 
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