what happens if Prussia loses the 7 years war?

Hrm. Venice and Milan? There were plans to conquer the former in OTL...

Combined with Italian Tyrol that could certainly work. But when would they have chance to conquer Venice between the 1760s and the late 1770s?

I was wondering about Dalmatia.
 
Milan and Parma might work, but that would probably hurt the own Habsburg-Lorraine position in Italy too much.
And the kingdom of Naples was already lost before the POD in the war of the Polish Succession.

So I guess that this would make a trade unlikely, unless if it is enforced after a conflict; if the elector Paltine & duke of Bavaria loses such a conflict, then I can see a Parma-Bavaria trade happening, but not under normal circumstances.
 
Milan and Parma might work, but that would probably hurt the own Habsburg-Lorraine position in Italy too much.
And the kingdom of Naples was already lost before the POD in the war of the Polish Succession.

The Habsburgs would very happily trade their position in Italy for a serious penetration into Germany and the HRE. They were very nervous they could not ensure their candidate would become Holy Roman Emperor, and turning that into a completely hereditary position was a primary foreign policy goal. The problem is whether the Elector would accept trading a Kingdom like Bavaria for a couple of minor duchies in Italy.
 
Bavaria wasn't a kingdom, but a duchy, it only became a kingdom (again if you count the Carolingian (sub-) kingdom) after the dissolution of the HRE in the Napoleonic era.

Though Parma was relatively minor, Milan wasn't, though still not as important as Bavaria.

Anyway a Bourbon Southern Netherlands will make any future trade for Bavaria by Austria unlikely, unless Austria makes some major territorial gains, which doesn't seem likely either.
 
Though Parma was relatively minor, Milan wasn't, though still not as important as Bavaria.

Milan and Parma together could be ok as exchange for Bavaria, IMHO, but the elector of the Palatinate wouldn't accept a territory that's even farther away. The Austrian Netherlands IOTL made perfect sense since the new territory would be as continuous as you can get in pre-Napoleonic Germany.

There was another plot to exchange parts of Bavaria against Vorderösterreich (all those Austrian lands in OTL Baden-Württemberg). That's still possible.

Another idea: what if Austria takes Mark, Ravensberg and Kleve from Prussia? Those would be of major interest for Palatinate. So the idea would e to take Silesia back and get the western territories of Prussia, and then to exchange them, together with Vorderösterreich, against Bavaria. OTOH, Austria also gets more Italian lands against the Austrian Netherlands. The effect would be a large state along the Rhine (Greater Palatinate), and Austria that holds much more and more continuous territories in Germany and Italy alike.

Anyway a Bourbon Southern Netherlands will make any future trade for Bavaria by Austria unlikely, unless Austria makes some major territorial gains, which doesn't seem likely either.

I still think that territorial gains in the Balkans are likely. Prussia being destroyed means that Austria and Russia will compete over influence in Poland - but they did IOTL and that didn't stop them from teaming up on the Ottomans. Even more to grab for the Hapsburgs.
 
@ Monty Burns:

Combining Vorderösterreich (Further Austria) with the Prussian possessions in the Rhineland could work; I hadn't thought of that option yet. :)

However with major territorial gains I was more thinking about a territory like the Austrian Netherlands or Naples, which are large yet not continuous with the main part of their possessions; nonetheless your right again about potential gains in the Balkan.
 
Without Prussia, does Poland have the chance to avoid partition and regain its former great power status or its political institutions were hopelessly obsolete for the time?
 
has anyone ever heard the term, America was won in Germany?
With a Prussian loss, and too many enemies on the continent for the Brits to fight alone, I doubt they get all that territory that they did OTL;

Although this probably either just drags out the war, or leads to another soon afterwords.
 
has anyone ever heard the term, America was won in Germany?
With a Prussian loss, and too many enemies on the continent for the Brits to fight alone, I doubt they get all that territory that they did OTL;

I think the Brits would have to gain some territory, but I agree all of Quebec may be unlikely. The question is, what do the French give up to get Quebec back?
 
has anyone ever heard the term, America was won in Germany?
With a Prussian loss, and too many enemies on the continent for the Brits to fight alone, I doubt they get all that territory that they did OTL;

I disagree. Britain and Hannover had already turfed the French out of the latter, and they can't come back on their own. And why would Austria fight on once it's destroyed Prussia, just to give France more power in Germany?

Although this probably either just drags out the war, or leads to another soon afterwords.

Would either Britain or France have the money to fight another war? Both were struggling with debt.

I think the Brits would have to gain some territory, but I agree all of Quebec may be unlikely. The question is, what do the French give up to get Quebec back?

The only thing the French have gained in Europe is the Southern Netherlands, and there's no way they would exchange that for Quebec. To be honest, I imagine the French would accept her losses at the peace table, as in OTL, and then do the swap for the Netherlands afterwards, after the Brits can't do much about it.
 
Peter III will save Prussia from any serious, long-lasting effects in terms of actual damage. Never underestimate the degree to which that kind of Tsar would be willfully stupid. Not sure how Catherine the Great will handle this kind of thing, though I'd imagine she might have greater difficulty with any policies too favorable to Germans.
 
Peter III will save Prussia from any serious, long-lasting effects in terms of actual damage. Never underestimate the degree to which that kind of Tsar would be willfully stupid. Not sure how Catherine the Great will handle this kind of thing, though I'd imagine she might have greater difficulty with any policies too favorable to Germans.

The POD is that it happens before Peter III comes to the throne. He can't do much about it if Prussia has already been dismantled.
 
The POD is that it happens before Peter III comes to the throne. He can't do much about it if Prussia has already been dismantled.

That's the thing IMHO Prussia-Brandenburg will suffer territorial losses, most importantly Silesia and some other small territorial losses (another option could be the Lusatian possessions of Prussia-Brandenburg to Saxony).
So Prussia-Brandenburg will basically only be slightly smaller than when Frederick was crowned.
 
That's the thing IMHO Prussia-Brandenburg will suffer territorial losses, most importantly Silesia and some other small territorial losses (another option could be the Lusatian possessions of Prussia-Brandenburg to Saxony).
So Prussia-Brandenburg will basically only be slightly smaller than when Frederick was crowned.

With anyone other than Peter in charge, Russia is going to demand territory, as it was the main player in Prussia's defeat. That will almost certainly be East Prussia, which would likely be swapped for contiguous territory (Courland?) that borders Russia.

That will leave the remainder of the defeated state as just Brandenburg. Losing both Silesia and East Prussia will mean the country loses the majority of its territory.
 
Top