What happens if an Atlanta class CL runs into a Königsberg

fred1451

Banned
What if an Atlanta class CL runs into a Konigsberg at night at about 8 km?

(I'm thinking of setting up a miniatures scenario.)
 
Hmm, the Konigsberg's 150mm guns have better armor penetration than the Atlanta's 5"/38s. The Konigsberg has better torpedoes. Favoring the Atlanta class is a higher rate of fire for her guns, and her fire control radar.

The worse the visibility is for the night scenario, the better off the Atlanta does. We know the Atlantas can take a lot of damage. Atlanta herself took a 24" torpedo and 49 shell hits, including friendly 8" shells. How would the Konigsberg class's armor hold up to the 5"/38?
 
Hmm, the Konigsberg's 150mm guns have better armor penetration than the Atlanta's 5"/38s. The Konigsberg has better torpedoes. Favoring the Atlanta class is a higher rate of fire for her guns, and her fire control radar.

The worse the visibility is for the night scenario, the better off the Atlanta does. We know the Atlantas can take a lot of damage. Atlanta herself took a 24" torpedo and 49 shell hits, including friendly 8" shells. How would the Konigsberg class's armor hold up to the 5"/38?

The Konigsberg's had thin deck armor. Heck, the Konigsberg's deck got penetrated by 100 pound bombs....
 
The biggest advantage the Konigsberg would have is the range of the 15cm SK C/25 guns, they outrange the 5"/38 by about 8,000 yards.

According to NavWeapons, the 5"/38 actually has better armor-piercing capability with its Special Common round than the 15 cm SK C/25 Armor Piercing round, which I do find hard to believe. The Konigsberg's armor is little thicker in all areas, but neither is heavy enough to stop the other's weapons. Neither ship has a speed advantage over the other.

The Atlanta would have to do everything in its power to close the range quickly to enable its guns to get into range. Once the Atlanta gets into range, it would quickly smoother the Konigsberg with its greater rate of fire. Those 5 to 10 minutes while the Atlanta closed the range could be sure hell if the Konigsberg fire control is halfway decent.

A daytime engagement plays to the Konigsberg advantage, while a nighttime engagement favors the Atlanta. I definitely would not want to be the Atlanta in a daytime stern chase.
 
I'm just going to give a modest reminder that just as, if not more, important as the technical details is who has the better crew and leadership. A crew and captain who are confident, well-trained, experienced, and suitably adept possesses an advantage over one which is not. Of course, whether that advantage is decisive or not depends both on the degree of superiority and how it interacts with other factors (both technical and environmental).
 
gun batteries...

If Atlanta is in range, she has a 14 gun broadside firing much faster than the 9 gun broadside of the German ship. That is a LOT of metal going down range...
 
In a night engagement at 8 km the Konigsberg would be at a great disadvantage. The Atlanta would have a MK 4 radar for it's Mk 37 fire control. The MK 4 wasn't as good as later systems, but it was far better than anything any German light cruiser had.

At night, with radar fire control, at a range that the USN 5"/38 could penetrate any armor on the German cruiser, with double the rate of fire for the main armament, the Atlanta would be a heavy favorite to win this engagement.
 
A daytime engagement plays to the Konigsberg advantage, while a nighttime engagement favors the Atlanta. I definitely would not want to be the Atlanta in a daytime stern chase.

Agreed. Which is why short of the Konigsberg somehow getting between the Atlanta and an unprotected Allied convoy I can't imagine why the skipper of the Atlanta would not break off pursuit.:confused:
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Hmm, the Konigsberg's 150mm guns have better armor penetration than the Atlanta's 5"/38s. The Konigsberg has better torpedoes. Favoring the Atlanta class is a higher rate of fire for her guns, and her fire control radar.

The worse the visibility is for the night scenario, the better off the Atlanta does. We know the Atlantas can take a lot of damage. Atlanta herself took a 24" torpedo and 49 shell hits, including friendly 8" shells. How would the Konigsberg class's armor hold up to the 5"/38?

5"/38 will chop her to pieces at that 8,000 meters. The Special Common will punch through the thickest part of the belt at that range. Even the Common AA will be able to rip her up, just not as comprehensively as the Special Interestingly, despite the Atlantas being justly famed for vulnerability her belt will be sufficient to stop the 150mm at the same range. even up close (3,500m) the belt over the machinery and magazines will stop the 150mm fairly easily.

The big difference will be in weight of fire. Konigsberg will have a max firing rate of 72 RPM, the CLAA (initial design with wing turrets) can fire 200 RPM+, (CLAA crews tended to be very well drilled so it is possible that the fire rate could be as high as 264 RPM). With 3-4 times the number of shells fired the chances of a hit are obviously much greater, and with the rate of fire per gun multiple hits are also far more likely once on target.

Radar is something of a varying factor, the FuMo 21 set wasn't useful for gun-laying, but the USN was not especially solid in the use of the early FD Mark 12 against surface targets either (if it had been Savo Island would have ended very differently).

Torpedoes are always something of a crapshoot in any engagement involving 30+ knot ships. Extremely difficult to air, with even a half knot of error enough to cause a clean miss, especially at 8,000 meters (better than four miles, at 30 knots a ship can cover a lot of ground after a torpedo has left the launcher, especially if it is dodging, or trying to dodge, enemy gunfire).

What you wind up with is a post WW I design, using previous generation shell designs, albeit from larger guns, against a modern ship sporting better armor than the type in use in the 1920s and firing a much more effective shell design, especially in the Special Common (one reason the 5"/38 has better penetration is that it is a higher velocity gun, by about 15%, the other is the AP cap on the Special common, a shell designed specifically to defeat previous versions of plate, including the Krupp face hardened that the KM ship was built with).

Since the engagement range is set by the OP, and since the USN design gun can defeat the armor of the KM design while firing at least three times as many rounds per minute, while the KM ship's guns can not defeat the primary belt of the USN hull, the odds favor the U.S. ship. There is no 100% certainty in combat, just ask the surviving officers of Hiei, assuming any got off the bridge after it was chopped to pieces by 5"/38 that shouldn't have had a prayer of doing damage (same sort of armor as on the Konigsberg, BTW, except better than double the thickness), but the numbers lean strongly toward the CLAA.
 

Redbeard

Banned
At night and at only 8000 yards is a favourite scenario for the Atlanta, especially because of superior US radar.

But if you instead take daylight and say 20.000 yards range, the Königsberg would finish off the Atlanta well out of range of Atlanta's guns.
 
Both vessels have Torpedos - with the German Vessel having slightly more - but I am trusting that this is an early war engagement (Koln - being the only survivor at this time vs Atlanta or one of her 3 next sister ships commissioned in 42?) ....and these being German or US Torpedos :eek:

Other than that the Atlanta is a superior design in every way and with the ability to throw out some 15 RPM per gun (so 14 guns able to bear = 210 RPM) vs Theoretical 8 RPM of the german Guns (so all 9 guns = 72 RPM)

Both shells are carrying roughly the same bursting charge although the 5.9" shells are considerably heavier.
 
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