What Entente victory scenario creates the best path for lasting democracy in Germany and Russia?

So, with a POD of any point after the start of the war, what form of Entente victory would have the highest chance of leading to long-lasting democracy in Germany and Russia? The democratic government must be a consequence of WW1 and not any subsequent war.

Some thoughts I have on the matter:
  • An Entente victory very early on, such as in 1914 or 1915, would IMO serve only to cement Tsarist rule and delay or possibly prevent substantial democratic reform. Is there any way for the Entente to win after the February Revolution but before the October Revolution?
  • I've seen some users argue that the best path is Entente victory by way of a long push into Germany, stretching the war to 1919. But I disagree, as I feel prolonging the conflict further than OTL would just further embitter the German public, as well as worsen the Great Depression and the ensuing instability it caused. To clarify, I still think a victory along the lines of OTL in 1918 could have resulted in a lasting Weimar democracy (they were by no means doomed IMO, our timeline just drew the short straw), but by that point the Russian Civil War is well under way and Russia seems to be left with the option of either communist dictatorship or a White reactionary regime. Neither are particularly promising.
 
An Entente victory very early on, such as in 1914 or 1915, would IMO serve only to cement Tsarist rule and delay or possibly prevent substantial democratic reform. Is there any way for the Entente to win after the February Revolution but before the October Revolution?
Yes, prevent the crazed Plan XVII from replacing Plan XVI and improve France's performance in the West. Hopefully the Western Front would be further north and more in Belgium rather than France - that would have spared the Entente from launching numerous costly offensives and instead forced the Germans to do so otherwise.

Meanwhile, keep Russian performance as bad as IOTL, but don't let them do the OTL Kerensky Offensive.

  • I've seen some users argue that the best path is Entente victory by way of a long push into Germany, stretching the war to 1919. But I disagree, as I feel prolonging the conflict further than OTL would just further embitter the German public, as well as worsen the Great Depression and the ensuing instability it caused
Disagree. Marching into Germany would have killed off the "stab in the back" myth. IOTL much of the German populace did not even believe that they were losing - until Hidenburg surrendered.

Next, actually occupying Germany means that you can enforce your intended restrictions and reforms (e.g. land reforms targeting the Junkers), purging various reationary elements from the Court, the Civil Service and the Army Officers, or suppressing paramilitary groups like Freikorps.

Finally, the Americans would have had much greater say in postwar settlement and greater involvement in Europe. In that case, the French could be persuaded.
 
Finally, the Americans would have had much greater say in postwar settlement and greater involvement in Europe. In that case, the French could be persuaded.
Considering that wilson's plans created a lot of the embitterment about germany not being allowed to unify with austria, and wilson was in favor of leniency in germany which led to a whole other can of worms, I think this may well endanger the third republic since their "allies" could be seen as favoring their enemies. A stab in the back you could say.

The threads about Germany and Russia, but that felt worth pointing out
 
Perhaps succesful Gallipoli. German monarchy would stay around but evolves towards more democratic system. And since Britain would be worried about stronger Russia, it could pressure France to accept not that harsh peace terms for Germany.

For Russia this would mean no revolutions and no rise of Bolsheviks. But there would be now more pressure towards democratic system since millions of soldiers would demand more political rights and other reforms. Tsar just can't sey easily "no".
 
Considering that wilson's plans created a lot of the embitterment about germany not being allowed to unify with austria, and wilson was in favor of leniency in germany which led to a whole other can of worms, I think this may well endanger the third republic since their "allies" could be seen as favoring their enemies. A stab in the back you could say.

The threads about Germany and Russia, but that felt worth pointing out
Wilson would have been replaced by 1920, though. That's a given. Folks like Henry Cabot Lodge would have had key roles in the peace settlement. We can see the US joining League of Nations with a different, Republican President.

France would still get Alsace-Lorraine in full plus still lots of reparations. Also, a key diffence is that ITTL treaties could be enforced
 
France would still get Alsace-Lorraine in full plus still lots of reparations
I suspect if france is expected to invade Germany, it's gonna want a bit more than alsace-lorraine. The saarland for instance

Actually responding to OP's question- I do think that an actual invasion of Germany would help massively in getting Germany to accept the postwar order and thus avoid discrediting the weimar government. I just also think that it would be a harsher treaty, but one more digestible due to the different facts on the grounds
 
I suspect if france is expected to invade Germany, it's gonna want a bit more than alsace-lorraine. The saarland for instance

Actually responding to OP's question- I do think that an actual invasion of Germany would help massively in getting Germany to accept the postwar order and thus avoid discrediting the weimar government. I just also think that it would be a harsher treaty, but one more digestible due to the different facts on the grounds
And the Entente now could have a chance to reconstruct the German government system from the bottom to the top, which IOTL they could only do after 1945.
 
Yes, prevent the crazed Plan XVII from replacing Plan XVI and improve France's performance in the West. Hopefully the Western Front would be further north and more in Belgium rather than France - that would have spared the Entente from launching numerous costly offensives and instead forced the Germans to do so otherwise.

Meanwhile, keep Russian performance as bad as IOTL, but don't let them do the OTL Kerensky Offensive.


Disagree. Marching into Germany would have killed off the "stab in the back" myth. IOTL much of the German populace did not even believe that they were losing - until Hidenburg surrendered.

Next, actually occupying Germany means that you can enforce your intended restrictions and reforms (e.g. land reforms targeting the Junkers), purging various reationary elements from the Court, the Civil Service and the Army Officers, or suppressing paramilitary groups like Freikorps.
I quite agree, except for the fact that it wasn't Hindenburg who surrendered. He and Ludendorff just sneaked out the back door and let civilians do the surrendering.
But, yes: Actually occupying Germany would have helped a lot in removing many heavy legacies which hung around Weimar's neck. Like @AltoRegnant already said.
And if Russia is on the path to democracy instead of communism in 1918/19, this becomes more likely, too, as the Western powers don't have to fear to lose too much energy in occupying and weakening a potential bulwark against Bolshevism, and instead would have encouragement and potentially participation from Russia in the endeavour of occupying Germany.
But how do you get the Entente to actually go for "unconditional surrender" - or else prevent Germany from throwing the towel?
And how do you keep Russia from turning Red? Preventing the Kerensky Offensive goes some way, but it doesn't solve everything. So let's look into further proposals:
Perhaps succesful Gallipoli. German monarchy would stay around but evolves towards more democratic system. And since Britain would be worried about stronger Russia, it could pressure France to accept not that harsh peace terms for Germany.

For Russia this would mean no revolutions and no rise of Bolsheviks. But there would be now more pressure towards democratic system since millions of soldiers would demand more political rights and other reforms. Tsar just can't sey easily "no".
If Gallipoli had been successful and the Ottomans had sunk into chaos, Bulgaria would in all likelihood not have joined the Central Powers. That would have been good news for Serbia, but other than that, would all this in turn have prevented Romania from entering the war? If not, then Romania's entry on the Entente side would have triggered Bulgaria's entry on the CP side, only later, and the A-H campaign against Romania would have gone similarly to OTL, creating a not so different situation in Central Eastern Europe, except that the Ottomans are finished off early on, Venizelists probably join early in an opportunistic bone-picking, so that Bulgaria's victory over Serbia isn't 100 % certain yet, especially if Britain and France can send more aid because the Ottomans are collapsing anyway or already out of the war.

If Romania stays out of the war, though, which might well happen, or at least doesn't join until very late when Entente victory becomes absolutely certain and Bulgaria isn't a threat, then, on the one hand, Russia's front lines are considerably shorter (especially if the Ottomans surrender). On the other hand, Austria-Hungary's frontlines are A LOT shorter and it's by far not as overstretched as IOTL.

Let's go with the latter option because it's more interesting.
For that matter, let's say the Dardanelles straits are forced and Istanbul is threatened right away in March 1915. The Ottomans would probably not surrender right away, but evacuate their government. Let's say this is the moment when Venizelos succeeds in joining the war on the Entente side, and a disheartened King Constantine can't muster the strength in him to push him aside and prevent him from doing so. No National Schism in Greece, thus. Instead, Istanbul is threatened from all sides now, and ultimately falls, allowing Britain and France to ship support through to the Russians. The horrible performance of the CUP leadership in the war might be sufficient for their opponents and opportunistic forces to push them aside, which would help stopping the Armenian genocide - another good thing. At some point in the second half of 1915, the Ottomans seek terms and a ceasefire is concluded. (They now have to deal with insurgent Arabs, but those Arabs now don't necessarily have British backing.)

What now? Britain and France can free up quite a lot of forces, they can supply Russia and prop up Serbia. The Italian and the Western Front can also be strengthened.
Russian forces from the Caucasus Front are freed up, too.
But by that point, they have still already lost the Battle of Gorlice-Tarnow, and the Great Retreat has happened, too, for I don't see why it would not have occurred, it is too early for new Russian forces or Anglo-French material support to have arrived on time.
And even with lots of troops and lots of materiel, the Battle of Lake Narach was lost in 1916. Yet more troops and more firepower might not have averted that. Russia had a problem with its military leadership, which would not have been solved by the Ottoman collapse.

So, Germany is overstretched in the East, and Britain and France can bring a lot more resources to the Western Front. OHL should have seen the impossibility of winning the war when their Ottoman ally collapses, but do they really?
I am not a military expert, so I don't know how the war on the Western Front would actually go. Could Britain and France really have broken through and pushed back early on, even without the US in the war?

Let's say they can't. So the war drags on through 1916, Germany and Austria-Hungary, but also Russia begin to look rather hungry, the war has become massively unpopular here. With somewhat better fortune, the series of French mutinies might have been averted, further strengthening the Entente on the Western Front.

Starvation in Petrograd and dissatisfaction with the horrible performance of the elites still causes the February Revolution of 1917 to break out. But around the same time, the British and the French finally manage to break through the Hindenburg Line and start a successful Hundred Days Offensive more than a year ahead of OTL schedule and without US participation. Maybe now Romania joins in opportunistically, but now it's too late for Bulgaria to pick the other side, so they remain neutral. With Entente support, the Romanians stay in Transilvania and that's it. Maybe the A-H collapse begins in Hungary now.

OHL knows they're lost, and like IOTL, they push civilians to the fore to concede it, the sly treacherous cowards that they were. But in the first half of 1917, and without a Russian October to inspire it, there aren't yet any Revolutionäre Obleute networks forming everywhere to organise widespread mutinies and revolts. Also, if a last hooray for the navy is not ordered, Kiel doesn't ignite the powderkeg, either. Thus, it's not a group of republican politicians signing alt-Compiegne. It's probably not Bethmann-Hollweg, either, for he must certainly resign after such a course of events. Is it Michaelis, who succeeded him IOTL, or is it someone with real reformist inclinations?
Whoever it is, he is not faced with a collapsing state order and revolution in the streets. And he can't hope for a lenient Wilsonian treatment, since the US are not in the war. And he doesn't have to fear a Bolshevik revolution because the world doesn't that kind of thing yet. He has to sign alt-Compiegne anyway because the war is lost, but in the light of the incredible unpopularity of it, he might hold off too long, and Anglo-French troops might already have set foot on German soil by that point. (That would be holding it off for quite a while indeed, to be honest. And it would be only the Westernmost edges of German soil anyway.) If he waits that long, and the Entente must fear a potential rebound because the German Army isn't disintegrating, just losing ground, then full occupation to oversee demilitarisation might be a demand of alt-Compiegne. But it may well not be. If it isn't, then we're not necessarily getting the good conditions for German democracy.

Hm.
Anyone else got an idea?
 

Garrison

Donor
I suspect if france is expected to invade Germany, it's gonna want a bit more than alsace-lorraine. The saarland for instance

Actually responding to OP's question- I do think that an actual invasion of Germany would help massively in getting Germany to accept the postwar order and thus avoid discrediting the weimar government. I just also think that it would be a harsher treaty, but one more digestible due to the different facts on the grounds
A crushing Entente victory with unconditional surrender would strangle the 'stabbed in the back myth' and of course there would be no expectation that any treaty would be based on Wilson's 14 points. Weimar would probably be far more constrained in its foreign and economic policies, so it might not take out the loans that proved so catastrophic when the Great Depression hit. Overall it wouldn't take much for Germany democracy to limp through the 1930s until things showed some sort of uptick as more interventionist policies were adopted instead of the laisse faire policies that dominated the response to the Great Depression in the beginning.
 
A crushing Entente victory with unconditional surrender would strangle the 'stabbed in the back myth'

Did that myth matter in any important way?

After all it was just as current in 1928 (when the Nazis won all of 12 Reichstag seats) as later. What brought down Weimar was the Great Depression. To save it, you need to remove that.
 
I think of Versailles as a "bitter spot", the opposite of a sweet spot. Or, think of Goldilocks.

Versailles wasn't gentle enough to encourage Germany to truly embrace liberal democracy and realize that lasting trade with France and Britain was worth vastly more than some corner of Belgium or even collectively punishing all of Serbia for one terrorist shooting somebody the Habsburg despot didn't even like.

Versailles wasn't harsh enough to keep vanquished Germany on its knees long enough to make them truly embrace liberal democracy and realize that any future war in Western Europe would be literally unwinnable because of the Arsenal of Democracy, even if provincial American politics meant a delay in actual war with the world's largest-by-a-Texas-country-mile military and naval force.

Versailles was not gentle enough, not harsh enough — just wrong. (By "Versailles" I don't mean the words of the treaty, I mean the aftermath of the war, broadly.) It allowed Hitler to convince millions of Germans that taking responsibility for their own problems was not only unnecessary but verboten — far better to drink his poisoned brew and believe that merely installing Hitler as all-powerful Führer would allow him to simultaneously solve all of Germany's problems by simply murdering all the Jews.

IMO the harsh route is more likely to succeed. Europe is only just beginning to break its deadly addiction to rule by absolute monarchy, but they're going to Absolutists Anonymous meetings and they've got a nice sponsor. (I'm only a friend of some friends of Bill, but I thought the metaphor was worth including.) It wasn't time to beat swords into plowshares just yet.


Here's one military scenario that could mean a fair election in Germany in 1933. IOTL the general staffs on both sides were allowed to fight the war until literally the last minute. Soldiers on both sides fought more or less as if the tactical situation had remain unchanged up to 11 am on 11 November 1918; soldiers died to take a few more yards of ground even after the armistice had been signed. You can't force Willy and Hindenburg to realize the war is lost.

But what about driving it home to the German soldier that he had been defeated and that the country that wanted him to die for it had not only lost the war but ceased to exist, that he had been altogether abandoned? I can't name the date, but suppose the Entente general staff decide on limiting forces to defensive action. Meanwhile, a leaflet campaign begins. The war is lost. On Armistice Day, British, French and American rations will be available for all German soldiers. Those who surrender will get a hot shower and a clean uniform courtesy of the Entente laundry companies. Wounded soldiers will receive care from Entente medics until they can be transported to German (or Red Cross/neutral) hospitals. And so on. A very gentlemanly end to a war.

Every soldier fighting for Willy and Friends had to come to terms with losing the war, and this offer simply gives every soldier the things that soldiers carry on fighting for: an end to the discomfort of war and a chance to redeem themselves to those they leave behind.

Meanwhile, an occupation force is prepared. The people of occupied France need help from the Entente as much as the German soldiers do, and they need to get it fast. The liberation of France is an important mission that will be left mostly to French soldiers. It will be done like it was in the summer of 1944. They will have orders to fire upon anyone who doesn't surrender.

On Armistice Day, the German front collapses in every military sense within a matter of hours. In places, members of the Prussian officer class draw sidearms and rant about the bloody Kaiser; Entente MPs will persuade them that it is unbecoming an officer and a gentleman, and more becoming a common criminal, to give orders that violate the armistice. Some are shot as looters, insisting that it's somehow wrong to execute a baron or a count even as the blindfolds are put on. French villages are liberated and Entente motorized forces advance towards the French border, where they will not stop. There is, after all, no real government in Germany. Willy Invictus might proclaim otherwise, but hints of a trial — and hints of a trial for the men who enabled Hitler when the time came — will begin to make it clear that their criminal pride has no place in the world of 1918-19.

It's that very last bit that guarantees peace. The losers of WW1 are shown up to be losers, in the sense that they did not win. The Entente won't do to them what they would have done to the French, just like the Allies didn't do what to the Nazis what the Nazis had done to literally everybody who didn't speak English. But this puts an end to their lost cause fantasy. They lost, they lost because they weren't as good at fighting as the other side. And people who lose wars get punished. Germany is made to take the L, suck it up, and try to play nice with the other countries. Men who decided IOTL that they don't need to get a job because they shouldn't have lost the war — the ones who liked to sit around in uniforms complaining about Jews — will have to be men again, just like Entente soldiers were.

Because, in the end, the Freikorps, and even the SA, were a LARPing rabble who somehow pushed their entitlement complex from the Bürgerbräukeller to Auschwitz, and Treblinka, and Babyn Yar, and Stalingrad.

It may have helped enable them that the Bolsheviks were the same sort of people doing the same sort of thing.
 

Garrison

Donor
Did that myth matter in any important way?

After all it was just as current in 1928 (when the Nazis won all of 12 Reichstag seats) as later. What brought down Weimar was the Great Depression. To save it, you need to remove that.
It matters in terms of its impact on how the politicians were perceived and helped fuel extremism on the right. The Great Depression is about factors beyond the control of Weimar or the Entente in 1918-19 when they were setting the terms of the peace to control.
 

ahmedali

Banned
I think the Sixtus case will do the trick


The departure of Austria will weaken the Germans so much that they will decide to establish a separate peace


They will be forced to impose a real constitutional monarchy for fear of revolution



Likewise, if the Grand Duke Michael takes the throne in 1917, Russia will impose all the reforms rejected by Nicholas



So will Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire (within OTL Turkey) become a democracy
 
It matters in terms of its impact on how the politicians were perceived and helped fuel extremism on the right. The Great Depression is about factors beyond the control of Weimar or the Entente in 1918-19 when they were setting the terms of the peace to control.
The point is that germans by and large absolutely resented the Versailles treaty and refused to consider it anything other than a dictate and wanted to overturn it. Even people like Stresemann had these same goals - he just hoped to do it from within the system instead of destroying that as well. That resentment was magnitudes stronger than the "Stab in the back" myth and would have been more than sufficient with an added great depression to topple democracy there.

What was the reason for that resentment? That the germans did not see themselves as guilty or in anyway deserving for the incredibly harsh and unjust treaty of Versailles (as they perceived it) - because at the end of the day they really did not (this is the big difference compared to WWII not the full occupation of Germany). A harsher treaty would have produced an even stronger resentment. And like it or not it would not have been possible to enforce it indefinately. Maybe instead of presenting the germans with a treaty that needs to be constantly enforced till the end of days they could have been presented a treaty that was acceptable and not in need of constant enforcement - because the majority would see it as - though bad - not worth fighting to overturn.
 
It kind of depends on if you think the Shop Stewards Movement and KAPD would constitute a continuation war or a separate war.

Is there any way for the Entente to win after the February Revolution but before the October Revolution?

Oh that meaning of democratic. Historians of ideas will tell you, rapidly and at length, that concepts of what "democracy" constituted were contested, politically, and militarily in the period in question. If you introspect more on what democracy means to you, or your favoured Pokemon of the 3rd Balkans gym, you'll start to uncover the limitations of that concept, and the relationship of the entente to that concept. None of an ancient fatigued aristocratic bargaining house over if your son gets to keep your land after you turn traitor, not a recent fatigued continuously varying fruit machine of ideals and despots, nor a mir in a factory are going to win WWI.

The closest you can get is if the Bolsheviks lose to Kronstadt, there, at least, you get the Mir writ large in Russia. Complete—I expect—with Žižek's tartar joke.

What does "democracy" mean? Because the answer seems to hinge entirely on whether you agree that KAPD revolutionary Germany is democratic along with me, or if you want an almost unreformed house of lords over Germany.

yours,
Sam R.
(Uninspected theory, especially when people don't realise they have a theory, is a great graveyard for AH. The other is self-insert fantasies.)
 

TDM

Kicked
The point is that germans by and large absolutely resented the Versailles treaty and refused to consider it anything other than a dictate and wanted to overturn it. Even people like Stresemann had these same goals - he just hoped to do it from within the system instead of destroying that as well. That resentment was magnitudes stronger than the "Stab in the back" myth and would have been more than sufficient with an added great depression to topple democracy there.

What was the reason for that resentment? That the germans did not see themselves as guilty or in anyway deserving for the incredibly harsh and unjust treaty of Versailles (as they perceived it) - because at the end of the day they really did not (this is the big difference compared to WWII not the full occupation of Germany). A harsher treaty would have produced an even stronger resentment. And like it or not it would not have been possible to enforce it indefinately.
Part of the resentment is that they didn't think they'd lost hence the stabbed in the back myth. i.e they not as separate as you make out

And yes I get they also thought they didn't deserve to be treated like losers but they started* and lost a 4 year war the scale of which we'd never seen before that trashed economies and killed in 8 figures. So they are going to be treated like losers no matter what they think even if they don't like it. Because what they like is entirely irrelevant to it happening. To consider any other option is to ignore reality in 1918.

The thing is I can think of the a solution to the stabbed in the back myth and we 'don't treat us like losers when we didn't really lose', ideas, but believe Germany in 1918 will not like it. And this is where it get's really odd because your entire argument is that the victor in 1918 should have prevented 1939-45 by being nice, but if you actually gave the victors in 1918 a magical hindsight crystal ball and showed them what happened in 1939-45 I don't think they will come to the same conclusion as you but rather a much harsher one!


*and yes I know you think they share less of the blame and umpteen threads on that matter has made ours position on that clear but that disagreement is also irrelevant because while I don't agree with you more importantly the winners in 1918 who paid the greatest costs certainly do not agree with you either

Maybe instead of presenting the germans with a treaty that needs to be constantly enforced till the end of days they could have been presented a treaty that was acceptable and not in need of constant enforcement - because the majority would see it as - though bad - not worth fighting to overturn.

This is ridiculous in what world does the loser get to find acceptable the results of losing war especially when the cost of wining have been so great?


And this is where this entire argument all boils down to, we pretend to Germany that they didn't lose so they won't feel hard done by. But the reality is Germany is not some special case who gets to not lose when they lost. Especially when Brest Litovsk tell us they were not going to be as equally nice if they won.

I really don't know why some insist on treating Germany in the first half of the C20th as some special case that doesn't get to feel the repercussions of it's actions just in case it get's in a piss and starts another war that kills in 8 figures.

Seriously how far should we take this argument? Shall we let Germany invade Belgium and all just surrender when they invade France in 1914 just in case they might lose the resultant war don't like that and go again 20 years later?

Or how about we refuse to have international alliances (but allowing Germany to have it's own alliances of course) just in case Germany doesn't like it?

Seriously is there anything we shouldn't give Germany to keep it nice and happy and not invading anyone because things haven't gone it's way?
 
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but if you actually gave the victors in 1918 a magical hindsight crystal ball and showed them what happened in 1939-45 I don't think they will come to the same conclusion as you but rather a much harsher one!
If that happens, Germany would have been "Morgenthau"-ed and divided into petty states. East Prussia, Sudetenland, Saarland, Posen and Silesia would have been ethnic cleansed. This would have truly broken Germany.

People at that time did not think like FDR, Truman and Marshall in order to rebuild Germany as a democratic republic.
 
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Garrison

Donor
What was the reason for that resentment? That the germans did not see themselves as guilty or in anyway deserving for the incredibly harsh and unjust treaty of Versailles (as they perceived it) - because at the end of the day they really did not (this is the big difference compared to WWII not the full occupation of Germany). A harsher treaty would have produced an even stronger resentment. And like it or not it would not have been possible to enforce it indefinately. Maybe instead of presenting the germans with a treaty that needs to be constantly enforced till the end of days they could have been presented a treaty that was acceptable and not in need of constant enforcement - because the majority would see it as - though bad - not worth fighting to overturn.
The problem was not the content of the treaty, which was not harsh compared to the terms the Germans themselves imposed in the Brest-Litovsk Treaty, it was their false belief that they hadn't been defeated on the battlefield and thus Versailles would be a negotiation and not the victors setting out their terms, which is what it actually was. It was the mythology that Germany had been 'stabbed in the back' rather than brought to the brink of total defeat in the 100 Days that laid the groundwork for the future problems faced by Weimar and encouraged their own poor policy decisions that all but ensured the rise of extremists on the left and right.
 
What I'm seeing from the responses to this thread is that there is no nice way to bring liberal democracy to Germany. In my opinion, if a strong liberal democratic Germany is to be propped up, an external impetus such as a powerful Soviet Union stretching to the Bug river in Poland would be needed.
 
Part of the resentment is that they didn't think they'd lost hence the stabbed in the back myth. i.e they not as separate as you make out
I think that that is only true for the far right idiots - but they would have found some idiocy to replace it anyway. OTOH nearly the whole political spectrum agreed on refusing and wanting to overturn Versailles - not because they thought they were not defeated but because they did not think they deserved it. Another million dead and french boots in Berlin would not make the loss of Danzig any more palatable to the germans than the german boots in Paris did the loss of Alsace in 1871 for the french.
And yes I get they also thought they didn't deserve to be treated like losers but they started* and lost a 4 year war the scale of which we'd never seen before that trashed economies and killed in 8 figures. So they are going to be treated like losers no matter what they think even if they don't like it. Because what they like is entirely irrelevant to it happening. To consider any other option is to ignore reality in 1918.
I dont disagree with most of this - it would be unreal to expect an in any significant way milder treaty in 1918. The war was too long and too brutal for that . OTOH that does not change the german part of the equation. If the victors try to keep up the situation created in Versailles indefinately Germany is bound to react agressivly sooner and later. At a bare minimum Germany will want to become a fully independent state.
The thing is I can think of the a solution to the stabbed in the back myth and we 'don't treat us like losers when we didn't really lose', ideas, but believe Germany in 1918 will not like it. And this is where it get's really odd because your entire argument is that rhe victor in 1918 should have prevented 1939-45 by being nice, but if you actually gave the victors in 1918 a magical hindsight crystal ball and showed them what happened in 1939-45 I don't think they will come to the same conclusion as you but rather a much harsher one!
No. My argument is that avoiding a second war is only possible if either Germany willingly accepts the new system or its constantly presented with a coalition of potential enemies that makes any german plans for overturning the system clearly impossible. Looking at the fact that Germany is potentially the strongest landpower in Europe - maybe with the exclusion of Russia - the second part is much harder to do in the long run. My ideal solution for avoiding WWII would have been some form of appeasement but stricly with a pro western lead Germany. An appeasement lets say for a Streseman lead polity would have cemented the latters position and I think would have a very good chance to win Germany for the west.
*and yes I know you think they share less of the blame and umpteen thread on that matter has made ours position on that clear but that disagreement is also irrelevant because while I don't agree with you more importantly the winners in 1918 who paid the greatest costs certainly do not agree with you either
Yes we strongly disagree and yes thats irrelevant here.
This is ridiculous in what world does the loser get to find acceptable the results of losing war especially when the cost of wining have been so great?
Again I do not think it realistic for Germany to get much better terms in 1918 than it did OTL. Not without some serious POD in the war - like a swift entente victory though I have no idea how that would bring about a democratic Russia.
And this is where this entire argument all boils down to, we pretend to Germany that didn't lose so they won't feel hard done by. But the reality is Germany is not some special case who gets to not lose when they lost. Especially when Brest Litovsk tell us they were not going to be as equally nice if they won.

I really don't know why some insist on treating Germany in the first half of the C20th as some special case that doesn't get to feel the repercussions of it's actions just in case it get's in a piss had starts another war that kills in 8 figures.
If you aim to create a peaceful system you need a system where the strongest powers are not actively interested and working in overturning it. In Europe Germany is the potentially strongest nation since about 1871. Their military, their economy and their population means that even in the best case scenario - an alliance of the other GP's - can only about match its power. That means if you want peace in Europe you need a situation that the germans can accept. So yes - like it or not - Germany was a special case.
Seriously haw far should we take this argument? Shall we let Germany invade Belgium and all just surrender when they invade France in 1914 just in case they might lose the resultant war don't like that and go again 20 year later?
I thought we arent going into the reasons of the war again and agreed to disagree - not to mention how hyperbolic you are. None said anything like what you write so im not sure who you are arguing against.
Or how about we refuse to have international alliances (but allowing Germany to have it own alliances or course) just in case Germany doesn't like it?

Seriously is there anything we shouldn't give Germany to keep it nice and happy and not invading anyone because things haven't gone it's way?
Again you keep bringing up pre WWI stuff (ridiculously misrepresented IMO) but thats not for this thread.

What I think would have been enough for Germany to become an integral part of the system and the west? As I stated earlier: appeasement, but only when its led by pro western factions. Start off with the Saarland, Danzig, and removing other restrictions - finally allowing the Anscluss if Austria wants it as well. Basically acknowledging Germany as a fully independent country and allowing the (majority) of german people the possibility to live in their own nation state if their want to.
 
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