What does an Allied Italy look like before, during, and after World War 2?

[Cryhavoc101]

And the Germans are less depleted without fixing what Italy spoils

Italy is still notorious for its inefficiency

In fact, without Italy, the Nazis would be spared from the Balkan and Mediterranean front, and the occupation of Yugoslavia and Greece, which greatly exhausted them.

So it's still an improvement for the Germans

And with no Verdun of the Mediterranean the Royal Navy and allies has an additional 76 Warships, 48 Submarines (the number lost to Axis forces between 1940 and Sept 1943) and the med is open for business (no going around Africa) - and that means allied business.

Japan is far less likely to attack British holdings with x number of Divisions, 1000s of Aircraft and WW2 is likely known as the 2nd Great War being almost totally confined to Europe.

 

[ahmedali]

Portugal didn't have Oil Revenue like Italy would, or Military Force

Angola and Cabinda in particular have huge amounts of oil than Iibya

Portugal succeeded in dividing the Portuguese independence movements themselves

 

[ahmedali]

A larger number of surviving Jews, The Duce didn't believe in Anti Semitism as such. Perhaps a refuge for the Piedre Noirs, in Algeria.

The Jews want Palestine, this cannot be changed

 

[marathag]

And the Germans are less depleted without fixing what Italy spoils

Italy is still notorious for its inefficiency

In fact, without Italy, the Nazis would be spared from the Balkan and Mediterranean front, and the occupation of Yugoslavia and Greece, which greatly exhausted them.

So it's still an improvement for the Germans

The Germans would still end up in Yugoslavia, and then Greece.

the understrength Armored Divisions and one Luftwaffe Luftflotte won't make a difference in Barbarossa

Angola and Cabinda in particular have huge amounts of oil than Iibya

Portugal succeeded in dividing the Portuguese independence movements themselves

Italy get Oil early, Angola was late, after Independence, and then a fraction of Libya

 

[ahmedali]

The Germans would still end up in Yugoslavia, and then Greece.

the understrength Armored Divisions and one Luftwaffe Luftflotte won't make a difference in Barbarossa

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Italy get Oil early, Angola was late, after Independence, and then a fraction of Libya

It was all because of Italy in the first place. Without Italy, Yugoslavia will remain neutral, and Greece will also be Bulgaria, without their alliance with Italy being neutral.

Early timing will make a difference (Barbarossa has been delayed several times because Hitler had to solve Mussolini's disasters

Oil was discovered in Libya in 1958 and this is late compared to Angola, which discovered its oil in 1955

So your argument is very weak

 

[M79]

If that is the case, the Germans *might* reach the gates of Moscow four to six weeks earlier that in OTL.

 

[ahmedali]

If that is the case, the Germans *might* reach the gates of Moscow four to six weeks earlier that in OTL.

Exactly Italy was a burden

Without it, the German situation will improve

 

[Dominic]

Exactly Italy was a burden

Without it, the German situation will improve

Absolutely not. Italy drained far more Allied resources than it did German. Vast quantities of men and material had to be pushed into Africa, the Mediterranean, and then Italy itself to bring them down. Conversely, Italy on the Allied side would tie down far more German resources than it did OTL, and provide a very large pool of manpower to bolster Allied operations. The Battle of the Atlantic would be won far more easily with both the French and Italian fleets in support, and the destruction of the Luftwaffe would be easier with bases in Italy.

 

[ahmedali]

Absolutely not. Italy drained far more Allied resources than it did German. Vast quantities of men and material had to be pushed into Africa, the Mediterranean, and then Italy itself to bring them down. Conversely, Italy on the Allied side would tie down far more German resources than it did OTL, and provide a very large pool of manpower to bolster Allied operations. The Battle of the Atlantic would be won far more easily with both the French and Italian fleets in support, and the destruction of the Luftwaffe would be easier with bases in Italy.

In all, Italy's performance was very disastrous

So much so that the Germans had to help the Italians

The invasions of Yugoslavia and Greece tied up German resources

Without all this, all German resources are focused on Barbarossa

 

[marathag]

In all, Italy's performance was very disastrous

Yes, per OTL. ATL, there is no demonstration of that.

The invasions of Yugoslavia

From the Wiki
In 1940 and early 1941, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria all agreed to adhere to the Tripartite Pact and thus join the Axis. Hitler then pressured Yugoslavia to join as well.[14] The Regent, Prince Paul, yielded to this pressure, and declared Yugoslavia's accession to the Pact on 25 March 1941.[15] This move was highly unpopular with the Serb-dominated officer corps of the military, Serbian organizations such as National Defense and the Chetniks Association, the Serbian Orthodox Church, a large part of the Serbian population as well as liberals and Communists.[16] Military officers (predominantly Serbs) executed a coup d'état on 27 March 1941, forced the Regent to resign, and declared 17-year-old King Peter II to be of age.[17]
Preparation
Upon hearing news of the coup in Yugoslavia, Hitler called his military advisers to Berlin on 27 March. On the same day as the coup he issued Führer Directive 25, which called for Yugoslavia to be treated as a hostile state.[18] Hitler took the coup as a personal insult, and was so angered that he was determined, in his words, "to destroy Yugoslavia militarily and as a state" (Jugoslawien militärisch und als Staatsgebilde zu zerschlagen)[19] and to do so "with pitiless harshness"[20] and "without waiting for possible declarations of loyalty of the new government".[21]

Sounds to me, there would be a coup, no matter what the Italians were doing or not doing in Greece
So The Mustache would be enraged, and invade Yugoslavia

 

[ahmedali]

Yes, per OTL. ATL, there is no demonstration of that.

From the Wiki
In 1940 and early 1941, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria all agreed to adhere to the Tripartite Pact and thus join the Axis. Hitler then pressured Yugoslavia to join as well.[14] The Regent, Prince Paul, yielded to this pressure, and declared Yugoslavia's accession to the Pact on 25 March 1941.[15] This move was highly unpopular with the Serb-dominated officer corps of the military, Serbian organizations such as National Defense and the Chetniks Association, the Serbian Orthodox Church, a large part of the Serbian population as well as liberals and Communists.[16] Military officers (predominantly Serbs) executed a coup d'état on 27 March 1941, forced the Regent to resign, and declared 17-year-old King Peter II to be of age.[17]
Preparation
Upon hearing news of the coup in Yugoslavia, Hitler called his military advisers to Berlin on 27 March. On the same day as the coup he issued Führer Directive 25, which called for Yugoslavia to be treated as a hostile state.[18] Hitler took the coup as a personal insult, and was so angered that he was determined, in his words, "to destroy Yugoslavia militarily and as a state" (Jugoslawien militärisch und als Staatsgebilde zu zerschlagen)[19] and to do so "with pitiless harshness"[20] and "without waiting for possible declarations of loyalty of the new government".[21]

Sounds to me, there would be a coup, no matter what the Italians were doing or not doing in Greece
So The Mustache would be enraged, and invade Yugoslavia

The coup will not happen because without fear of Italy

Yugoslavia is neutral, and this satisfies my defection

 

[Dominic]

In all, Italy's performance was very disastrous

So much so that the Germans had to help the Italians

The invasions of Yugoslavia and Greece tied up German resources

Without all this, all German resources are focused on Barbarossa

You overstate Italy's poor performance, but it's also beside the point. Italy absorbed more Allies resources than German resources, it was a net gain for Germany despite its inefficiencies. Consider what the resources that went into Operation Torch etc could be used for with an Allied Italy, even ignoring what Italy can provide for the Allies.

 

[skarosianlifeform]

Nazis would not be spared from Balkan front, because there is Italian Albania... which is in the perfect position to strike at Ploiesti. So they have to invade Albania, and Yugoslavia that is in the way.

 

[lukedalton]

Italy series of problem was also due to the limited access to resources and the need to basically depend on Germany...and being on the allied side resolve this basically overnight.
Italy on the allied side mean that not only Germany need to divert troops used in France to control the south border and counter the italian air raid and so cast some serious doubt about their capacity to knock off France as OTL but that even in case of the fall of France the entente will not be expelled from the continent and the British Bomber Command will have acces to the North Italian air bases for launching their attack.
Italy on the allied side mean that the Mediterrean is an entente lake and so it will be much easier and economic for the British to obtain material and even in the Atlantic there will be a lot more ships available as escort.
Italy on the allied side mean no campaign in East and North Africa and this free much much more of Entente material and men than whatever Germany sent there.
All this mean also that the British will be a lot less desperate than OTL to obtain US support so the Tizard Mission and the 'Destroyers for Base' deal will be a lot less one side deal plus with Regia Marina on their side the British will be a lot less worried of the eventual use of the French fleet by the Nazis so the Dakar and Mars el Kebir attack will probably not happen meaning that Free France can obtain more colonies on her side from the beginning...if France even fall like OTL

Germany invasion of Jugoslavia was more due to the coup d'etat than anything Italy had done and this mean that it will happen also here and in any case, more trouble for the URSS mean a lot less capacity to support decolonization movement later or even advance in eastern europe as OTL

 

[CASSICTOR2]

Unlike Ethiopia, Libya has neighbors who support it (Egypt, Tunisia, Sudan and Algeria).

Egypt: the only country that could honestly help Libya but would face a problem with Italy easily supplying military and funding to counter any resurgence in Libya

Tunisia: is a recent newly independent country that neighboring Italian Libya and not risking their economy with Italy (including France)

Sudan: having a bloody civil war that last nearly 17 year's causing a million dead (1955-1972)

Algeria: have its own Independent war that had to fight over for decades costing millions of losses and resources. (1954-1962)

By the time when those country finally have their shit together, it be all ready too late with Italian settlers be the Majority/Plurality of Libya.

At best you might see a Northern Ireland/ Palestine situation instead of Algeria one

 

[ahmedali]

Egypt: the only country that could honestly help Libya but would face a problem with Italy easily supplying military and funding to counter any resurgence in Libya

Tunisia: is a recent newly independent country that neighboring Italian Libya and not risking their economy with Italy (including France)

Sudan: having a bloody civil war that last nearly 17 year's causing a million dead (1955-1972)

Algeria: have its own Independent war that had to fight over for decades costing millions of losses and resources. (1954-1962)

By the time when those country finally have their shit together, it be all ready too late with Italian settlers be the Majority/Plurality of Libya.

At best you might see a Northern Ireland/ Palestine situation instead of Algeria one

You also forgot Algeria and Tunisia, and they will support Libya like Egypt

 

[CASSICTOR2]

You also forgot Algeria and Tunisia, and they will support Libya like Egypt

I did mention Algeria and Tunisia mate but you also need to consider is..

One: Tunisia might be a risk if they fully support Libya because Italy is literally on their doorstep to project power through & the Italian ship's really help the Tunisia economy.

meaning that can easily just wreck the economy if really supported Libya insurgency.

Two: Algeria had just got it's independence from France and will badly needed to Rebuild their nation before helping Libya (this is not include the fact that Italy is just France but way more militaristic).

Algeria needs more time to heal to support Libya and by then it be already too late

 

[ahmedali]

I did mention Algeria and Tunisia mate but you also need to consider is..

One: Tunisia might be a risk if they fully support Libya because Italy is literally on their doorstep to project power through & the Italian ship's really help the Tunisia economy.

meaning that can easily just wreck the economy if really supported Libya insurgency.

Two: Algeria had just got it's independence from France and will badly needed to Rebuild their nation before helping Libya (this is not include the fact that Italy is just France but way more militaristic).
Algeria needs more time to heal to support Libya and by then it be already too late

Tunisia was able to win politically over France and expel them from Bizerte, and they are allies of the West

Despite that, Algeria was just like Egypt, where they supported Arab nationalists, and a brother like Libya would definitely support him

 

[ahmedali]

Nazis would not be spared from Balkan front, because there is Italian Albania... which is in the perfect position to strike at Ploiesti. So they have to invade Albania, and Yugoslavia that is in the way.

Italy series of problem was also due to the limited access to resources and the need to basically depend on Germany...and being on the allied side resolve this basically overnight.
Italy on the allied side mean that not only Germany need to divert troops used in France to control the south border and counter the italian air raid and so cast some serious doubt about their capacity to knock off France as OTL but that even in case of the fall of France the entente will not be expelled from the continent and the British Bomber Command will have acces to the North Italian air bases for launching their attack.
Italy on the allied side mean that the Mediterrean is an entente lake and so it will be much easier and economic for the British to obtain material and even in the Atlantic there will be a lot more ships available as escort.
Italy on the allied side mean no campaign in East and North Africa and this free much much more of Entente material and men than whatever Germany sent there.
All this mean also that the British will be a lot less desperate than OTL to obtain US support so the Tizard Mission and the 'Destroyers for Base' deal will be a lot less one side deal plus with Regia Marina on their side the British will be a lot less worried of the eventual use of the French fleet by the Nazis so the Dakar and Mars el Kebir attack will probably not happen meaning that Free France can obtain more colonies on her side from the beginning...if France even fall like OTL

Germany invasion of Jugoslavia was more due to the coup d'etat than anything Italy had done and this mean that it will happen also here and in any case, more trouble for the URSS mean a lot less capacity to support decolonization movement later or even advance in eastern europe as OTL

The coup in Yugoslavia was caused by the British

Allied Italy removes the coup because the British see no need for it

Without Italy, Greece would not be invaded, so the Nazis avoided the Balkan front

This is if the Soviet Union did not collapse because the Germans arrived in Moscow a few weeks early

 

[skarosianlifeform]

Well, Germans will want (and need) to invade Italian Albania, to stop the Regia Aeronautica and the RAF from attempting to bomb Ploiesti oil fields from there (it's less than 1000 kilometers away). They can't afford not to, because the Ploiesti oil fields are their primary oil production site (that is not controlled by Soviet Union), and the Allies know this and will indeed prepare operations against Ploiesti (and happily violate Yugoslavian neutrality if needed).

So Germans have to conquer Albania, which means they need to go through Yugoslavia, and either make it an Axis member or occupy it as well.

In turn, tha means the Allies will promote the coup against Regent Paul, because they don't want a pro-German Yugoslavia.

So, for Yugoslavia, the situation will be similar to OTL.
The country that will likely escape invasion, on the other hand, is Greece (because Italians will be too busy fighting Germany to think about invading the Kingdom of Greece, while Germans, once they're established in Yugoslavia and Albania, already have sufficient bases to carry a bombing campaign against the Adriatic coast of Italy, from Venice to Brindisi. Conquering Greece wouldn't help them further. So, the Greeks will likely sit the war out, and hope that nobody notices them.