What does a (victorious) White Russian army look like by 1939?

In the event of a White victory in the Russian Civil War, what would Russia's army eventually look like by 1939?

How would it differ doctrinally, and in terms of equipment, training, and war plans from the 1939 Soviet Army of our timeline?
 
The details will depend on what exactly happened during the RCW, but there are some details I think can be counted on in any White Victory tl:
-at least initially there will be strong French influence (Paris is going to make use of their debt slave one way or another)
-Russian geography means that tank designs will have some common qualities to OTL (good cross-country characteristics, little gun depression, ect...)
 
The details will depend on what exactly happened during the RCW, but there are some details I think can be counted on in any White Victory tl:
-at least initially there will be strong French influence (Paris is going to make use of their debt slave one way or another)
-Russian geography means that tank designs will have some common qualities to OTL (good cross-country characteristics, little gun depression, ect...)

If you want to elaborate with further detail, take whatever you see as the most plausible prospect for a White victory, with a surviving Tsar, as the starting point for your reconstructed hypothetical military.
 
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It greatly depends who wins post-victory power struggle. White army wan't any kind of unified group and they just could agree for defeating of Bolsheviks. If they manage to win RCW there would be new civil war between sevceral factions. So war would last yet some years longer. I think that some generals on Western Russia has best chances to win. Perhaps Wrangel has best bet. I think that Russian army is in same level than in OTL altough due different reasons. Russia would be even pooeer and it has too lower industrial level. And one thing is too what would are Russian borders at this point.
 
It greatly depends who wins post-victory power struggle. White army wan't any kind of unified group and they just could agree for defeating of Bolsheviks. If they manage to win RCW there would be new civil war between sevceral factions. So war would last yet some years longer. I think that some generals on Western Russia has best chances to win. Perhaps Wrangel has best bet. I think that Russian army is in same level than in OTL altough due different reasons. Russia would be even pooeer and it has too lower industrial level. And one thing is too what would are Russian borders at this point.
What do you think it looks like, post second civil war, in the event of your posited Wrangel victory, and with borders roughly equivalent to the ones the OTL Soviets managed to pull together? (Maybe with the loss of a bit more territory to, e.g., Poland).
 
What do you think it looks like, post second civil war, in the event of your posited Wrangel victory, and with borders roughly equivalent to the ones the OTL Soviets managed to pull together? (Maybe with the loss of a bit more territory to, e.g., Poland).

Russia probably would be quiet authotarian right-wing state if not outright fascist euual. Not so sure about borders. Finland probably can keep its independence altough not sure if Finland can gain Petsamo region.

Not any idea how things would go with Baltics and Poland. Poland probably keeps its independence. Belarus and Ukraine might still be annexed by Russia. Probably same is with Caucasus too. Rest of borderlines are same as in OTL.
 
Russia probably would be quiet authotarian right-wing state if not outright fascist euual. Not so sure about borders. Finland probably can keep its independence altough not sure if Finland can gain Petsamo region.

Not any idea how things would go with Baltics and Poland. Poland probably keeps its independence. Belarus and Ukraine might still be annexed by Russia. Probably same is with Caucasus too. Rest of borderlines are same as in OTL.
And as far as the thread goes, what would you expect their military to look like in the situation you outlined? Any major doctrinal differences from the Soviets, for example, that would strike you as likely?
 
And as far as the thread goes, what would you expect their military to look like in the situation you outlined? Any major doctrinal differences from the Soviets, for example, that would strike you as likely?

Presumably no need for commissars for one.
 
This will be the doctrine of mobile warfare. Tanks, blitzkrieg.

The white movement in southern Russia, where most of the famous white officers were located, began to rely mainly on speed, raids to the rear of the red.
Great emphasis will be placed on the autonomy of officers in their units.
Historically, the White Army was small in number and relied mainly on the personal qualities of the commanders.
 
This will be the doctrine of mobile warfare. Tanks, blitzkrieg.

The white movement in southern Russia, where most of the famous white officers were located, began to rely mainly on speed, raids to the rear of the red.
Great emphasis will be placed on the autonomy of officers in their units.
Historically, the White Army was small in number and relied mainly on the personal qualities of the commanders.
Also presumably allows you to keep an eye on a smaller, easier to watch, politically reliable military staffed (and needing to be staffed) by relatively more educated people from the higher rungs of society.
 
In the event of a White victory in the Russian Civil War, what would Russia's army eventually look like by 1939?

How would it differ doctrinally, and in terms of equipment, training, and war plans from the 1939 Soviet Army of our timeline?
I think it is best to start by comparing a possible White Russia versus our historical Red USSR.

- White Russia will probably be less industrialized. Say whatever else you want about the Soviets, they did embark on a real and substantial industrial program. It is doubtful a White Russia would or could make even a fraction of the effort.

-White Russia will have far more international contacts. While Red Russia was an isolated and paranoid state, convinced every other nation wanted to crush it (not unfairly) , White Russia would see outside intervention as the thing that saved them. You will probably see more outside influence.

-White Russia will probably be less centralized. This is not a very high bar since it is hard to imagine a state more centralized then Stalinist Russia. Still, this is probably a major divergence.

- White Russia is also going to have greater contuinty with the old Russian Army. You aren't going to have that phase where Russian tried to totally reorganize what armies were, by removing ranks and uniforms and all that.
 
I think it is best to start by comparing a possible White Russia versus our historical Red USSR.

- White Russia will probably be less industrialized. Say whatever else you want about the Soviets, they did embark on a real and substantial industrial program. It is doubtful a White Russia would or could make even a fraction of the effort.

-White Russia will have far more international contacts. While Red Russia was an isolated and paranoid state, convinced every other nation wanted to crush it (not unfairly) , White Russia would see outside intervention as the thing that saved them. You will probably see more outside influence.

-White Russia will probably be less centralized. This is not a very high bar since it is hard to imagine a state more centralized then Stalinist Russia. Still, this is probably a major divergence.

- White Russia is also going to have greater contuinty with the old Russian Army. You aren't going to have that phase where Russian tried to totally reorganize what armies were, by removing ranks and uniforms and all that.
What do you see falling out from all of this in terms of how the army shapes itself?

For example, what continuities would you expect the White Russians to keep from the old Tsarist army, especially in light of the limits placed by decentralization and industrialization? Which international contacts will have the biggest influences on their own development? (I assume France would be a big one, as it even was for Japan.)
 
What do you see falling out from all of this in terms of how the army shapes itself?

For example, what continuities would you expect the White Russians to keep from the old Tsarist army, especially in light of the limits placed by decentralization and industrialization? Which international contacts will have the biggest influences on their own development? (I assume France would be a big one, as it even was for Japan.)
It is hard to say really, so much is going on.

Maybe a Russian army with more continuity and less purges would be more normal and capable then the OTL Red Army. It might be more independent and less reliant on the whims of a Stalin-like figure.

or maybe it would be a wretched hive of corruption and old-fashionedness, totally ridden with graft.
 
On one side, they would have less industry than the USSR.

On the other side, it's much more likely they would act together with Britain and France against any form of Germany, so the chances of a war with 20 million death would be much less prevalent.

Considering Russia is barebones today, without the Baltic, Belarus, Ukraine and Central Asia, I believe the Whites would probably be in a much better position.
 
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On one side, they would have less industry than the USSR.

On the other side, it's much more likely they would act together with Britain and France against any form of Germany, so the chances of a war with 20 million death would be much less prevalent.

Considering Russia is barebones today, without the Baltic, Belarus, Ukraine and Central Asia, I believe the Whites would probably be in a much better position.
Didn't the Soviets de-industrialize in the 20s and 30s compared to the previous trajectory of the Russian Empire?
 
, what would Russia's army eventually look like by 1939?
Is the more important question not what does the world look like in 39..... ie the Russian army might not need to be anything as large if we dont have a rearming Germany/World...?
Well, there was that giant civil war.....a White victory would have that, plus even more depending on how late the POD is.
I think we need to know the POD a much shorter/cheaper/less destructive civil war and world trade access might lead to a far richer Russia or anything else depending on nearly 20 years of global butterflies?
 
You will also have a European oriented army in the west and a China/ Japan (Manchuria) oriented army in the Russian Far East. In most cases there will be the same equipment but might differ in certain things like tanks and artillery. Example is the T34 vs BT 7, BT7 units were more of use in the far east because they were not up against the units that needed a T34 to the primary tank against. Artillery in the East might be more mobile with a bigger amount of truck and tracked pulling the tubes than in the west however the west would have more fully armored units along the lines of the SU type weapon.

Fighting against the armies of China and Japan might also see more automatic weapons per company and even more motorized units for their maneuverability.
 
I'm just going to point out that the rate of Russian industrialization was higher in Imperial Russia than Soviet Russia. And many of the imperial industrialists sided with the Whites, and as such were either killed or exiled.
 
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