What does a 1950s WWIII look like?

To what extent might the United States spare Soviet satellite states that undergo active anticommunist unrest? After all, one of the PODs that I suggest is the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 spiraling out of control, and under the circumstances, it’s certainly possible that you could see renewed/exacerbated tensions in East Germany and Poland.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uprising_of_1953_in_East_Germany

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poznań_1956_protests

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_October

Suggested the ssme but they are still active supply lines for a very large Red Army. At least some of the CNC and rail networks are gone
 
There is this article on Collier's Magazine called Preview of the War We Do Not Want that details how would a WWIII play out, complete with subarticles written by folks like Edward Murrow himself, though it's quite optimistic in some cases, especially regarding how it seems to skim over how the war itself goes in the latter half.
 

Geon

Donor
Are any of them reasonably realistic?

Judge for yourself...

Tomorrow! was essentially a novel about a fictional city in the Midwest patterned after Minneapolis/St. Paul with one of the two cities being prepared for a nuclear attack and the other not so much. When a nuclear attack occurs (and the novel hypothesizes a December 7th style "sneak attack" by the Soviets on the U.S. and its allies.) the difference between the prepared and unprepared city is plain. The war itself is followed in general, with the high point being a Strangelove-type doomsday weapon being used against the U.S.S.R. in the form of a super hydrogen-cobalt laced bomb detonated in a submarine near the Russian coast that pretty much wipes out most of the Soviet Union.

Triumph takes the viewpoint of a group of survivors of a nuclear holocaust that begins when Tito dies and shortly thereafter there is a power struggle initiated in Yugoslavia. The Soviets decide to invade in order to seize the country. Yugoslavia then applies to NATO for help. The Soviet premier then decides to launch a full all-out nuclear attack on the U.S. I would say the author here vastly overestimates the capabilities of the Soviets given the time frame (1963). The attack pretty much ends up killing every human being in the U.S. except for the small group of people who have sequestered themselves in a deep underground shelter built by an eccentric millionaire survivalist. The Soviets also have an extensive well-prepared shelter system for their military and political elite. They emerge first and try to use the nuclear stockpiles they have in those shelters to effectively take over the surviving free world - that is anything south of the equator. The Australian Navy with survivors from the USN puts an end to the Soviet threat once and for all.

Forbidden Area follows a hypothetical limited nuclear naval conflict which is a follow-up to an attempt by Soviet spies to sabotage our major nuclear and military centers. There is limited nuclear action at sea but nothing else.

Alas Babylon tells the story of a community in Florida that is isolated from the rest of the country when a nuclear war breaks out due to an escalation in the Middle East centered in Syria. But the story implies the Soviets are looking for a chance to put an end to the U.S. and its allies once and for all and the Syrian crisis serves as a handy excuse. In the exchange the U.S. suffers heavy damage, but apparently the Soviet Union is flattened. Again the emphasis is on this small community though we learn a great deal through radio broadcasts...it bears a close resemblance to our own Protect and Survive: Miami thread.
 
US has an ICBM designed in 1946 with 8000 mile capacity, we tested at least 3 and perhaps as many as 10 were in some way *publically* acknowledged. Much of that information and research went to the Atlas program later.

I missed the 1946 ICBM and feel really bad about my failure of intelligence. Six years later, but before the first H-Bomb demonstration, I remember being assigned to review a proposal for what was then called an "IBM". It was a huge contraption, way bigger than the R-7, since it had to lob a number of light weight nuclear weapons a little more than half as far as the missile you mention. Sort of an atomic shotgun, since the best estimates of accuracy required to hit its single target with one low yield weapon needed (as I recall) dispensing at least eight separate warheads. This was about the best thinking I, or anyone else at Wright-Pat, was aware of in 1952.

Dynasoar
 
I missed the 1946 ICBM and feel really bad about my failure of intelligence. Six years later, but before the first H-Bomb demonstration, I remember being assigned to review a proposal for what was then called an "IBM". It was a huge contraption, way bigger than the R-7, since it had to lob a number of light weight nuclear weapons a little more than half as far as the missile you mention. Sort of an atomic shotgun, since the best estimates of accuracy required to hit its single target with one low yield weapon needed (as I recall) dispensing at least eight separate warheads. This was about the best thinking I, or anyone else at Wright-Pat, was aware of in 1952.

Dynasoar

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTV-A-2_Hiroc

That's pretty close to the extent of public knowledge of the project.

Besides in 1952 Wright Pat was an interesting place but about 90 min south of there was something *a lot* more interesting.
 
Besides in 1952 Wright Pat was an interesting place but about 90 min south of there was something *a lot* more interesting.

All I can remember that fits the description was the "Bunny B" in Covington, Kentucky.

Dynasoar
 
I missed the 1946 ICBM and feel really bad about my failure of intelligence. Six years later, but before the first H-Bomb demonstration, I remember being assigned to review a proposal for what was then called an "IBM". It was a huge contraption, way bigger than the R-7, since it had to lob a number of light weight nuclear weapons a little more than half as far as the missile you mention. Sort of an atomic shotgun, since the best estimates of accuracy required to hit its single target with one low yield weapon needed (as I recall) dispensing at least eight separate warheads. This was about the best thinking I, or anyone else at Wright-Pat, was aware of in 1952.

Dynasoar

Either I am misunderstanding you,or I have looked into the abyss of time,and it looked back :eek:
 
Hang on a moment there. I see Denmark below Scandinavia in the top left corner of the map. Is it just because of the map projection, or does it look like there are nuclear targets in West Germany as well as East?
No... I don't think so.
Possibly remarkably close to the border for the westernmost (Magdeburg?), but the East German border did start right east of Schleswig-Holstein
and the size of the dots may skew the perspective.
 
The Soviets would have the advantage in Europe with conventional forces. Depending on how early in the 50s you set your TL. the US would have either a considerable or an overwhelming advantage in strategic nuclear bombing capability. Thus the Red Army might well wind up on the eastern shores of the English Channel coast but all of Mother Russia would be a glassed over smoking ruin.
Slight problem, tactical nuclear weapons were deployed in Europe and the decision to use was up to the local Commanders
The Russians would not get to the Rhine, unfortunately most of West Germany east of the Rhine would be radioactive glass.
 

Jack Brisco

Banned
There was considerable popular fiction written during that period about World War III. Four novels I could recommend from that general period are Tomorrow! and Triumph by Phillip Wylie (note while Triumph was written in 1963 it clearly sees things from a fiftyish perspective.) Also the well-known Alas Babylon and Forbidden Area by Pat Frank.

In Triumph the war begins with Tito's death and a Soviet invasion of Yugoslavia and escalates from there.

Have Tomorrow! and Alas, Babylon. Both very good, very thought-provoking. Just put Triumph on my Amazon wish list.
 
There is this article on Collier's Magazine called Preview of the War We Do Not Want that details how would a WWIII play out, complete with subarticles written by folks like Edward Murrow himself, though it's quite optimistic in some cases, especially regarding how it seems to skim over how the war itself goes in the latter half.

Yeah, that issue is amazing. If you can get to a library and read a physical copy I highly recommend it. It's like reading an artifact from an ATL.

Overly optimistic about the aftermath but probably correct in broad strokes about an early 1950s war (the US and Europe get beaten up, the USSR collapses and is occupied due to Western air and nuclear superiority).

The lack of H-bombs at that point would probably prevent a nuclear winter scenario, right?
 
Useful link on 1950s era Strategic Air Command target list

This is basically early SIOP period, and while there are relatively few ICBMs on either side, the Russians and Americans both have significant numbers of IRBMs and of course there are literally thousands of US B47s by the mid 50s, with B52s by the late 50s. American losses would have been brutal in terms of aircraft and aircrew, but the Soviet Union would have been literally bombed to a level that would be genocidal. Western Europe would have suffered severely, particularly the UK, Netherlands, Belgium and France from Russian strikes, while tactical weapons would have resulting to horrific damage in Germany and anywhere else any significant fighting occurred.

North America in the 1950s would have been relatively unscathed in comparison. The Americans would have leveled Red China, while the Russians would have done the same to Japan. Both Koreas would have suffered terrible losses.

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb538-Cold-War-Nuclear-Target-List-Declassified-First-Ever/
 
Useful link on 1950s era Strategic Air Command target list

This is basically early SIOP period, and while there are relatively few ICBMs on either side, the Russians and Americans both have significant numbers of IRBMs and of course there are literally thousands of US B47s by the mid 50s, with B52s by the late 50s. American losses would have been brutal in terms of aircraft and aircrew, but the Soviet Union would have been literally bombed to a level that would be genocidal. Western Europe would have suffered severely, particularly the UK, Netherlands, Belgium and France from Russian strikes, while tactical weapons would have resulting to horrific damage in Germany and anywhere else any significant fighting occurred.

North America in the 1950s would have been relatively unscathed in comparison. The Americans would have leveled Red China, while the Russians would have done the same to Japan. Both Koreas would have suffered terrible losses.

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb538-Cold-War-Nuclear-Target-List-Declassified-First-Ever/

Mao and the rest of the CCP might have been crafty enough to cut a deal and get out of the war. They do in "Preview Of The War We Do Not Want", so some people in the US must've been open to that idea.

TBH the war happening in 1950 and the war happening in 1959 are almost unrecognizably different. 1950 = Like WWII again but a lot of the strategic bombing is nuclear, most of the US mainland is spared. 1959 = apocalyptic for Europe and the USSR, very bad for the US, the US "wins" but nations like India, Brazil and Australia become the great powers by default. The H-bomb is a real game-changer, means one bomb can destroy a whole large city as opposed to just a big town.
 
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1959 = apocalyptic for Europe and the USSR, very bad for the US, the US "wins" but nations like India, Brazil and Australia become the great powers by default.
In 1959, the USSR didn't have a reliable way to get the Bombers over CONUS, the SAGE with AN/FSQ-7 Computer integrated defense network in place at this point, with multiples of interceptors and Nike SAMs for each Bomber that had the range for a one way trip to the American Heartland.

THat's why they tried to sneak IRBMs into Cuba, after all. They didn't have any faith in the Bombers completing a mission
 
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