What do you think the Confederacy did wrong?

Ficboy

Banned
Oh I don't disagree that this might be enough to still propel Lincoln to victory, but I think there is something of a tendency to overlook how the average Northern voter might feel about the war effort looking stalled in 1864. Perception is as important as reality in politics.

Like I said though, I am skeptical of an 1864 victory through exhaustion.
There is a small window of opportunity tied to specific periods in 1861-1862 for the CSA to win the Civil War such as the Trent Affair gone wrong between Britain and America (which is what you're doing in Wrapped in Flames: The Great American War and Beyond) which gets the former involved in the war against the latter and no Lost Order 191 during the Maryland and Kentucky campaigns coupled with Anglo-French intervention after a decisive Confederate victory or two. Alternatively having an earlier Civil War with a different inciting incident and the United States firing the first shots of the conflict and triggering an early formation of the Confederate States (11 states plus Kentucky and Missouri) would also help them greatly win.
 
There is a small window of opportunity tied to specific periods in 1861-1862 for the CSA to win the Civil War such as the Trent Affair gone wrong between Britain and America (which is what you're doing in Wrapped in Flames: The Great American War and Beyond) which gets the former involved in the war against the latter and no Lost Order 191 during the Maryland and Kentucky campaigns coupled with Anglo-French intervention after a decisive Confederate victory or two. Alternatively having an earlier Civil War with a different inciting incident and the United States firing the first shots of the conflict and triggering an early formation of the Confederate States (11 states plus Kentucky and Missouri) would also help them greatly win.
Which brings us to a point to make about the CSA's biggest mistake for the war -- their entire survival depended on a foreign intervention that never materialized.
 
Yes, because things played as IOTL. As it was, as already cited, Lincoln into late August expect to lose but the turning point for that was the fall of Atlanta, which happened right after. As for McClellan:

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His VP was Pro-Peace as was the platform, which he (McClellan) only repudiated after it became clear the political headwinds were changing as September progressed. In the event of a major Federal defeat, either in the Western or Eastern Theaters, then everything changes.
Reread the passage you just posted and notice how unfavorably the author speaks of McClellan's campaign.
 

Ficboy

Banned
Which brings us to a point to make about the CSA's biggest mistake for the war -- their entire survival depended on a foreign intervention that never materialized.
Foreign intervention by Britain and France was the one thing that the CSA needed to win in 1861-1862 during the Civil War by having a major victory or two on the USA's home soil just like how the Thirteen Colonies/United States of 1775-1783 won the Revolutionary War thanks to a decisive victory in Saratoga, New York which got France and other European powers such as Spain and the Netherlands to recognize the fledgling new nation. If it were an early 1850s Civil War scenario then the CSA will have to seek foreign recognition very differently given that Britain and France are fighting Russia in the Crimean War and it might involve sending cotton as opposed to the self-imposed King Cotton embargo we saw in OTL.
 
Foreign intervention by Britain and France was the one thing that the CSA needed to win in 1861-1862 during the Civil War by having a major victory or two on the USA's home soil just like how the Thirteen Colonies/United States of 1775-1783 won the Revolutionary War thanks to a decisive victory in Saratoga, New York which got France and other European powers such as Spain and the Netherlands to recognize the fledgling new nation.
The Confederate army under the leadership of Lee had already achieved impressive victories on the eastern theater numerous times in the war (Bull Run one and two, the Peninsula Campaign, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville) and yet none of them convinced Britain to drop its posture of neutrality. If it's been by now established that Britain's inaction was the cause of the south's defeat, then i'm afraid what we need is a thorough analysis on the factor of British politics and why its government preferred the course of action it took IOTL.
 
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Foreign intervention by Britain and France was the one thing that the CSA needed to win in 1861-1862 during the Civil War by having a major victory or two on the USA's home soil just like how the Thirteen Colonies/United States of 1775-1783 won the Revolutionary War thanks to a decisive victory in Saratoga, New York which got France and other European powers such as Spain and the Netherlands to recognize the fledgling new nation.
Except that unlike the ARW, the United States hadn't just spent the last hundred years poking in the eye with a stick at every oppurtunity. There was no big coalition who were just looking for excuse to dogpile on them. Now this is offset by the fact that the United States itself is so weak relative to Britain and/or France. BUT, it also means that the bar for intervention, MILITARY intervention, NOT diplomatic intervention, is higher. While Britain may have been willing to recognize the CSA, extend an offer for mediation, and then offer open loans and arms sales to prop up the country, and maybe even declare the Union blockade illegal, that doesn't equate to the British sending an army to North America to help fight the war. OTL Saratoga demonstrated that not only were the Americans serious about winning independence, they also showed that they were CAPABLE of winning the war (had Washington gotten luckier at Germantown he might well have done so without France declaring war at all). The CSA was never in a similar position.
 
Even if McClellan wins the election in 1864 (and that election wasn't close so it would have to take multiple Union setbacks just to get him competitive) he wouldn't take office til March of 1865. In OTL the Confederates were dead men walking in March of 1865.

Even in a hypothetical timeline where things go bad enough that McClellan wins Lincoln still gets five more months to prosecute the war as he sees fit. That five months could be bad enough for the CSA that McClellan would just stay the course rather than snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
 

Ficboy

Banned
Except that unlike the ARW, the United States hadn't just spent the last hundred years poking in the eye with a stick at every oppurtunity. There was no big coalition who were just looking for excuse to dogpile on them. Now this is offset by the fact that the United States itself is so weak relative to Britain and/or France. BUT, it also means that the bar for intervention, MILITARY intervention, NOT diplomatic intervention, is higher. While Britain may have been willing to recognize the CSA, extend an offer for mediation, and then offer open loans and arms sales to prop up the country, and maybe even declare the Union blockade illegal, that doesn't equate to the British sending an army to North America to help fight the war. OTL Saratoga demonstrated that not only were the Americans serious about winning independence, they also showed that they were CAPABLE of winning the war (had Washington gotten luckier at Germantown he might well have done so without France declaring war at all). The CSA was never in a similar position.
Anglo-French intervention in September 1862 yes. But as for the Trent Affair evolving into a full-blown war between Britain and America it would be the opposite.
 
Shoot Bragg for one, lol. Overall, I'm definitely in the camp of they could've easily won in the 1862-1864 timeframe, had they achieved a serious battlefield success. James McPherson notes Northern morale came close to collapse in the lead up to the '64 election while Anglo-French intervention was a serious prospect in 1862-1863.

Sure just shoot Bragg in 1862, and we wouldn't have to bother to take his name off the fort in 2020. They did achieve serious battlefield success and still lost the war. By what measure was Northern Morale collapsing in 1864? Local rioting? Peace candidates sure weren't winning many elections, draft calls were met, the armies keep fighting, bonds were sold. The population, economy and standard of living were growing rapidly. Two new states were added to the Union, immigrants were pouring into the country.

McPherson's observation isn't definitive proof of anything of the kind. He was taking note of the discouraged feelings of some of the elite in the North in the Summer of 1864, when the war seemed stalled in front of Atlanta, and Richmond. That doesn't prove the people of the North were ready to abandon the war, and throw Lincoln out of office. Nobody asked a poll question "After all the country's been though have all our loses been in vain, and and should we give up the War for the Union?" No, nobody asked any poll questions at all, commentators were just guessing at what the public thought. Real public sentiment is gaged by more solid measures, like voting, investing, civilian cooperation with the war effort, and how well the army, and navy were fighting. According to those measures Union Moral was nowhere near collapsing.
 
But as for the Trent Affair evolving into a full-blown war between Britain and America it would be the opposite.
But that would be intervention because of Union mistakes against the British, not intervention because the CSA won a decisive battle.
 
Sure just shoot Bragg in 1862, and we wouldn't have to bother to take his name off the fort in 2020. They did achieve serious battlefield success and still lost the war. By what measure was Northern Morale collapsing in 1864? Local rioting? Peace candidates sure weren't winning many elections, draft calls were met, the armies keep fighting, bonds were sold. The population, economy and standard of living were growing rapidly. Two new states were added to the Union, immigrants were pouring into the country.

McPherson's observation isn't definitive proof of anything of the kind. He was taking note of the discouraged feelings of some of the elite in the North in the Summer of 1864, when the war seemed stalled in front of Atlanta, and Richmond. That doesn't prove the people of the North were ready to abandon the war, and throw Lincoln out of office. Nobody asked a poll question "After all the country's been though have all our loses been in vain, and and should we give up the War for the Union?" No, nobody asked any poll questions at all, commentators were just guessing at what the public thought. Real public sentiment is gaged by more solid measures, like voting, investing, civilian cooperation with the war effort, and how well the army, and navy were fighting. According to those measures Union Moral was nowhere near collapsing.

James McPherson doesn't say "Northern Elites", he specifically says the North as an entire entity. If you believe he was only talking about elite opinion, then I ask you to cite something in this regard. If your position is that without polling data no claims can be made, then your position is no more provable than mine and we'll just have to agree to disagree given lack of a sound basis for debate. Clearly, however, you're willing to cite other factors to make your case-just as I do with McPherson-so your dismissal of a famed Civil War historian makes no sense.

If you'd like to look at other factors, we sure can, however. Between July 1863 and December 1864, 161,224 men failed to report to service under the draft. See also the Battle of Fort Fizzle in Ohio in 1863, the Detroit Race Riots of 1863, the Charleston Riot in March of 1864 in Illinois, the Fishing Creek Confederacy in Pennsylvania from July to November of 1864, and the occupation of New York City by the Federal Army in the Fall of 1864. You can also view the newspaper reporting in the Summer of 1864 in general, as the Northern public was shocked by the immense casualties taken by Grant and inflation in July of 1864 reached its war-time height of 50%. If you'd like to cite actual election results, can you show me results in mid-1864?
 
Reread the passage you just posted and notice how unfavorably the author speaks of McClellan's campaign.

Which, again, is based on the OTL turnout of the campaigns. As McPherson notes, it was specifically the string of Union victories from September to November that turned the picture around, starting with Atlanta. If we, in an ATL prevent this, then that comes unglued; it only takes a swing of less than 3% to have McClellan win the election, after all and he only repudiated the peace plank due to Atlanta.
 
Even if McClellan wins the election in 1864 (and that election wasn't close so it would have to take multiple Union setbacks just to get him competitive) he wouldn't take office til March of 1865. In OTL the Confederates were dead men walking in March of 1865.

Even in a hypothetical timeline where things go bad enough that McClellan wins Lincoln still gets five more months to prosecute the war as he sees fit. That five months could be bad enough for the CSA that McClellan would just stay the course rather than snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.


But the point is they wouldn't be dead men walking in an atl.

In such an atl at the very least Atlanta holds (you can argue they needed more but you'll agree this is the biggest one they needed to keep that they didn't), probably with Hood not becoming Army Commander. That means those men who deserted because Sherman's marching through Georgia, to the homes of those there and in the Carolinas are still in the ranks. Lives are not thrown away like they were in otl with the hopeless offensives of Hood and there is no march through Georgia even if Atlanta is abandoned in mid November (the AoT stays in front of Sherman). Others who deserted after Nov. 64, not wanting to die for a lost cause stay in the ranks. At the same time the Union, in an effort to win before McClellan takes office might try some reckless tactics which might work, or more likely they get people killed which increases the calls for peace.

Basically, the atl the Confederacy is much stronger regardless than otl. Probably not strong enough to last another year if they had to fight it out, but then again, they wouldn't have to.
 
Even if McClellan wins the election in 1864 (and that election wasn't close so it would have to take multiple Union setbacks just to get him competitive) he wouldn't take office til March of 1865. In OTL the Confederates were dead men walking in March of 1865.

Even in a hypothetical timeline where things go bad enough that McClellan wins Lincoln still gets five more months to prosecute the war as he sees fit. That five months could be bad enough for the CSA that McClellan would just stay the course rather than snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

The problem is said setbacks; if the Union war effort has taken enough blows to have McClellan elected the Confederates are not dead men walking by March of 1865.
 
Except that unlike the ARW, the United States hadn't just spent the last hundred years poking in the eye with a stick at every oppurtunity. There was no big coalition who were just looking for excuse to dogpile on them. Now this is offset by the fact that the United States itself is so weak relative to Britain and/or France. BUT, it also means that the bar for intervention, MILITARY intervention, NOT diplomatic intervention, is higher. While Britain may have been willing to recognize the CSA, extend an offer for mediation, and then offer open loans and arms sales to prop up the country, and maybe even declare the Union blockade illegal, that doesn't equate to the British sending an army to North America to help fight the war. OTL Saratoga demonstrated that not only were the Americans serious about winning independence, they also showed that they were CAPABLE of winning the war (had Washington gotten luckier at Germantown he might well have done so without France declaring war at all). The CSA was never in a similar position.

The Anglo-French were more than willing to intervene and all they need to do to doom the Union war effort is stop selling supplies. Indeed, their entire intention with recognition, as I've already pointed, was to force a peace conference in order to make Southern independence a recognized reality.
 
The problem is said setbacks; if the Union war effort has taken enough blows to have McClellan elected the Confederates are not dead men walking by March of 1865.
As stated before, Lincoln would still be a lame-duck with months of still mostly free action to crush the by now ground-down confederacy to powder. Their casualties are still rising and their victories are still recurrently pyrrhic.
The Anglo-French were more than willing to intervene...
Then why did they not?
it only takes a swing of less than 3% to have McClellan win the election...
McClellan lost by 5% of the vote tally and only attained 21 EC votes compared to Lincoln’s 212. Abe still has comfortable odds despite what his pessimism might tell him.
 
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The Anglo-French were more than willing to intervene and all they need to do to doom the Union war effort is stop selling supplies. Indeed, their entire intention with recognition, as I've already pointed, was to force a peace conference in order to make Southern independence a recognized reality.
This is quite frankly ridiculous. Public sentiment in Britain was at best lukewarm on the Confederacy, and slavery was widely despised among the political and working classes. Indeed, much of British colonialism in central and eastern Africa was accompanied by the banning of slavery in conquered areas--whether as justification or to assuage guilty consciences is irrelevant. The French were a decaying dictatorship barely able to control Mexico--a country that had less than two decades before been beaten black and blue by a much weaker and less militarized Union, and more importantly there's no way that the French would so much as consider moving in North America without British permission for fear of causing tensions across the Channel right as the Germans were starting to really coalesce against them.

Actual full-on UK intervention is a near-impossibility. The Trent affair--a blatant insult to Britain of the highest order--would certainly have led to war if there was any serious intent or will on the part of the British people or political class to intervene on the side of the slavocrats' rebellion. Also, though Palmerston was reputed to be wary of American power, he was also an opponent of slavery, and Trent proved unequivocally that he was unwilling to seize a pretext on a silver platter to intervene.

There is simply no realistic way that the CSA could do better than OTL without significant changes to the international situation going back prior to the War of Southern Aggression. Perhaps a weakening of Prussia in the early 19th century leading to a more stable Continent divided between French and Austrian spheres of influence, and a Britain led by a Prime Minister with fewer scruples? But not with the OTL situation and political figures.
 
As stated before, Lincoln would still be a lame-duck with months of still mostly free action to crush the by now ground-down confederacy to powder. Their casualties are still rising and their victories are still recurrently pyrrhic.

They're not ground down if they've sufficiently setback the North as elected McClellan, however.

Then why did they not?

Lack of battlefield success and the defeat at Antietam. Howard Jones said if Lee had not moved into Maryland and been defeated, Second Bull Run would've been enough.
 
James McPherson doesn't say "Northern Elites", he specifically says the North as an entire entity. If you believe he was only talking about elite opinion, then I ask you to cite something in this regard. If your position is that without polling data no claims can be made, then your position is no more provable than mine and we'll just have to agree to disagree given lack of a sound basis for debate. Clearly, however, you're willing to cite other factors to make your case-just as I do with McPherson-so your dismissal of a famed Civil War historian makes no sense.

If you'd like to look at other factors, we sure can, however. Between July 1863 and December 1864, 161,224 men failed to report to service under the draft. See also the Battle of Fort Fizzle in Ohio in 1863, the Detroit Race Riots of 1863, the Charleston Riot in March of 1864 in Illinois, the Fishing Creek Confederacy in Pennsylvania from July to November of 1864, and the occupation of New York City by the Federal Army in the Fall of 1864. You can also view the newspaper reporting in the Summer of 1864 in general, as the Northern public was shocked by the immense casualties taken by Grant and inflation in July of 1864 reached its war-time height of 50%. If you'd like to cite actual election results, can you show me results in mid-1864?
There was actually a proposal for New York City to secede from the Union before Fort Sumter, organized by New York Mayor Fernando Wood. The governor of New Jersey, Rodham Price, actually flirted with secession alongside the Confederacy because most New Jersey manufacturing went South and didn't want itself cut off from southern markets, the exact quotation being, "If we…remain with the North, separated from those who have, heretofore, consumed our manufactured articles and given employment to a large portion of our labor, …our commerce will cease, European competition will be invited to southern markets, our people be compelled to seek employment elsewhere, our state becoming depopulated and impoverished….Whereas to join our destiny with the South will be to continue our trade and intercourse--our prosperity, progress, and happiness--uninterrupted and, perhaps, in an augmented degree. Who is he that would advise New Jersey to pursue the path of desolation when one of prosperity is open before her…"
 
This is quite frankly ridiculous. Public sentiment in Britain was at best lukewarm on the Confederacy, and slavery was widely despised among the political and working classes. Indeed, much of British colonialism in central and eastern Africa was accompanied by the banning of slavery in conquered areas--whether as justification or to assuage guilty consciences is irrelevant. The French were a decaying dictatorship barely able to control Mexico--a country that had less than two decades before been beaten black and blue by a much weaker and less militarized Union, and more importantly there's no way that the French would so much as consider moving in North America without British permission for fear of causing tensions across the Channel right as the Germans were starting to really coalesce against them.

If it's ridiculous, then please cite something. Perhaps you missed it, but to quote from Blue and Gray Diplomacy: A History of Union and Confederate Foreign Relations by Howard Jones, the Chapter Antietam and Emancipation -

Second Bull Run encouraged the Palmerston ministry to consider southern separation as the key to stopping a war that the Union must accept as over. In light of their growing desperation, the prime minister and his foreign secretary refused to believe that Washington had any resiliency left. Palmerston and Russell thus linked either approval or rejection of mediation by the Union with an admission to independence that, by definition, pointed to ultimate recognition of a Confederate nation. Yet the Lincoln administration continued to renounce mediation as an unwarranted interference in American affairs that would prolong the war by holding out the prospect of southern recognition. The British again ignored the Union’s warnings against any kind of intervention and insisted that they sought only to bring the two warring parties to the peace table. But the White House correctly suspected that mediation marked the first step in a process that as a matter of course would lead to a foreign acclamation of separation and then, finally, to recognition. What other outcome could there be once the Union refused a public offer of mediation from one or more European powers that claimed only to want the war to end? Recognition, the Union realized, would open the Confederacy to commercial and even military agreements, making the European nations virtual if not actual allies of the new nation. With the welfare of one or more continental powers then tied to the Confederacy, the peacemakers would be under enormous pressure to use force to end the conflict.
These events might have played out in the autumn of 1862, had not Confederate general Robert E. Lee followed his victory at Second Bull Run with a raid into Maryland.

As for the French in Mexico:
"By the fall of 1864 the French army reached the northern border with Texas and was able to benefit from the lucrative trade with the embattled Confederate States in the civil war north of the Rio Grande. Also, in the far south, Bazaine defeated and forced the surrender of 8,000 republican troops under Porfirio Diaz in Oaxaca in early 1865. It was the last major republican force still in the field though it had little to no contact with Juarez himself. The fugitive president was, by that time, living constantly on the run in the northern reaches of Chihuahua just south of the Arizona border."​
Actual full-on UK intervention is a near-impossibility. The Trent affair--a blatant insult to Britain of the highest order--would certainly have led to war if there was any serious intent or will on the part of the British people or political class to intervene on the side of the slavocrats' rebellion. Also, though Palmerston was reputed to be wary of American power, he was also an opponent of slavery, and Trent proved unequivocally that he was unwilling to seize a pretext on a silver platter to intervene.

Actually Palmerston did; it was only the intervention of the Prince Consort that prevented war by toning down the British ultimatum. As it existed, it was acknowledged it was likely to start a war otherwise.

There is simply no realistic way that the CSA could do better than OTL without significant changes to the international situation going back prior to the War of Southern Aggression. Perhaps a weakening of Prussia in the early 19th century leading to a more stable Continent divided between French and Austrian spheres of influence, and a Britain led by a Prime Minister with fewer scruples? But not with the OTL situation and political figures.

I've already cited numerous examples they could, backed up by the historians. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I am likewise able to say it's just not supported by the historical record. Numerous possibilities of more Confederate victories exist and even James McPherson himself crafted such a scenario.
 
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