What did Hitler hope to achieve with the DoW on USA ?
- Thread starter skarosianlifeform
- Start date
So...he declared war because of beliefs that facially look utterly insane. Then again, history is showing over and over that Hitler was dumber than whale shit.
Partially. He doesn't seem to have totally bought the whole notion some Nazis did that the Americans were a weakened, mongrel people who couldn't hope to put up a fight but that doesn't diminish the role fears of the Grand Jewish Conspiracy played in his mind.
It's not for nothing modern neo-Nazis are conspiracy obsessed.
Well hitler was quite a few things.. but I don't hink dumb is one of them.
he knew what ameirca was, he knew and respected American manufacturing and business. might be a nation of mongrels, blacks, jews but he knew our size, distance and practical untouchability of hurting us on our soil. I think he thought he could wrap up Europe and keep the USA on the other side of the ocean before they could make an impact. ( best laid plans of mice and men.. and self delusion )
but the bigger point was he thought he could sink enough boat traffic to make it hurt. he couldn't and he couldn't outpace a nation he couldn't slow down since it was basically untouchable to him.
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More like he was a intelligent man who bought into some very dumb ideas that distorted his decision making. Smart people believing stupid things is actually quite common.
Hammerbolt
Donor
Well, he was partially right: there was an international conspiracy to bring him down!
Pretty much. And if the US doesn't come to the table, then Germany has the resources of all Eurasia with which to fight an intercontinental war.
Yeah... if they managed to really vanquish the Soviets AND exploit their resources efficiently despite terrible situation with logistics and guerilla. And to defend the West while having men spread to the Urals and Caucasus plus Norway and Balkans.
But then Hitler and realism don't mix well...
Well, he was partially right: there was an international conspiracy to bring him down!
Self-fulfilling prophecies, thy name is Hitler.
Well, he was partially right: there was an international conspiracy to bring him down!
Even paranoids have enemies.
Hitler had toyed with the idea of declaring war on the US several time in 1941. I don't have exact dates but one such was when the US started the occupation of Iceland in the summer of 1941. What changes might there have been had he declared war in June or July 1941?
Hammerbolt
Donor
At the same time that he was starting the invasion of the USSR? He'd need one heck of a casus beli...
Wallet
Banned
Hitler celebrated when he heard of the attack on Pearl Harbor. He thought the Japanese, having already attacked British and Dutch forces, were about to attack the Soviet Union. He believed the Soviets fighting two front across Eurasia would make them collaspses. He did spend the last year dining with the Japanese delegation in Berlin trying to get them to attack the Soviets.
After a few days, he declared war on the United States to push the Japanese to declare war on the Soviets.
Hitler declared war on the US because he hoped the Japanese Empire would attack the Soviet Union.
Another big reason was because he was getting annoyed of Lend-Lease shipments to the British over the Atlantic. His U-Boats could now fire on any boat they saw.
After a few days, he declared war on the United States to push the Japanese to declare war on the Soviets.
Hitler declared war on the US because he hoped the Japanese Empire would attack the Soviet Union.
Another big reason was because he was getting annoyed of Lend-Lease shipments to the British over the Atlantic. His U-Boats could now fire on any boat they saw.
The US was occupying territory that was associated with the government of one of the nations Germany had invaded, was replacing British soldiers, establishing a forward naval base for flying patrol aircraft from, establishing this inside what Germany had considered the war zone. There were other factors at work here; The signals intelligence service had penetrated the AT3 encrypted telephone link between London and Washington. Low grade stuff, but Hitler liked receiving transcripts of the phone conversations between Churchill & Roosevelt, & the others with access to the link. The conversations convinced him the US was in the war in all but the combat. He was also aware of the US cooperating with British agents in the US while legitimate German representatives were stalled & evaded at every turn, how the US was fading Britain intelligence, was working to assist in enforcing the blockade, was handing over warships to Britain, tanks, fuel, aircraft, food, ect... ect... He was aware the US had started mobilization of its armed forces, activating all its reservists, budgeting for a massive naval and air fleet expansion. He was very aware the US started similar assistance to the USSR within weeks of 22 June.
I fear this thread will end in tears as any thread on WWII that specifically references motives of Hitler will bring out the ultra-passionate, but will throw my two cents into this before the flames turn up:
I don't recall what was Goering's reaction to all this though, as that would be a good barometer of what Hitler thought as at this point the two were still simpatico and Goering would make it a point to send an aide to take down Hitler's words at various conferences verbatim so he could parrot Hitler and use his exact words when explaining the situation. Given the people with whom Goering talked had a higher survival rate after the war than Hitler's inner circle, that might be a good indicator of Hitler's thoughts on the matter.
- As others pointed out, Hitler did think he was fighting Roosevelt in all but name already,
- There was a formal alliance between Germany and Japan,
- There were assurances that Germany would declare war on US should Japan attack (said assurances were handed out by Ribbentrop, so, uh, take that for what it's worth, but Japanese officials felt they were coming from the highest authority in Germany),
- Hitler, as nearly as I could read from biographers on the topic, thought Japan's entry into the war outweighed America's formal involvement. The line of thinking ran, per people reading the tea leafs near the HQ: Japan's attack on UK and USA would mean both would have to divert valuable resources to protect Pacific and the Far East, and that would enable Germany to divert resources from the West to finish off Russia and then turn to UK and USA and hammer out a peace treaty.
I don't recall what was Goering's reaction to all this though, as that would be a good barometer of what Hitler thought as at this point the two were still simpatico and Goering would make it a point to send an aide to take down Hitler's words at various conferences verbatim so he could parrot Hitler and use his exact words when explaining the situation. Given the people with whom Goering talked had a higher survival rate after the war than Hitler's inner circle, that might be a good indicator of Hitler's thoughts on the matter.
I think it would be fairer to say that Hitler was a product of his time and place, albeit more influential than most. The declaration of war on the U.S. was apparently greeted fairly well in most parts of Nazi Germany (and in most parts of the UK, too - so a perfect crowd-pleasing solution!).
The bigger point though is that the Nazis recognized correctly that they could not just grow to become a leading world power without stepping on the toes of the other world powers. Therefore, war with the other powers is a question of when, not if. They're going to declare war on you eventually, if you don't declare war on them first. Therefore, you may as well choose a time that seems to be to your advantage. Declaring war on the U.S. when he did gave him credit with the Japanese and justified U-boat attacks on American shipping.
In hindsight it was obviously a bit of a blunder, but Hitler didn't have a very good understanding of how democratic politics worked in Britain, let alone in the United States, so he had a hard time understanding how an action like a declaration of war would influence U.S. political decisions. Particularly after he'd already underestimated French and British willingness to go to war over Poland, I think Hitler really did not understand how much his actions would be a thumb on the scales in Washington.
To the extent he did, though, it's still not a completely insane idea. He didn't think he could actually invade the U.S. in 1941, but if he could defeat any attempt to invade Europe, that would be just as good. And he might have been able to, if not for the catastrophe in Russia, but that is another story.
Even if Hitler had defeated Soviet Union AND forced Britain to throw the towel (with strangling submarine blockade) after Pearl Harbor, and Japan had gained as much victories as possible, the US would have defeated both Japan and Germany.
Japan because the USN and USAF would have drowned their Japanese counterparts in numbers if nothing else. While giving modern weapons to Chinese and Commonwealth armies, so Japan would have been beaten on the ground too sooner or later.
Germany because, even without Britain as a springboard, the US could still invade French North Africa, and then Italy, Sardinia, Corsica, France, Balkans... all the way to Germany. With German troops spread in occupied Russia.
And if Britain had thrown the towel, then it would have been an Amiens-like peace, before declaring war again when the US were invading through the Med.
And German analysts should have known that (had they properly appreciated US mindset and industry).
(I don't count nukes, Hitler didn't know about them, I only count what he and his subordinates could have known).
Japan because the USN and USAF would have drowned their Japanese counterparts in numbers if nothing else. While giving modern weapons to Chinese and Commonwealth armies, so Japan would have been beaten on the ground too sooner or later.
Germany because, even without Britain as a springboard, the US could still invade French North Africa, and then Italy, Sardinia, Corsica, France, Balkans... all the way to Germany. With German troops spread in occupied Russia.
And if Britain had thrown the towel, then it would have been an Amiens-like peace, before declaring war again when the US were invading through the Med.
And German analysts should have known that (had they properly appreciated US mindset and industry).
(I don't count nukes, Hitler didn't know about them, I only count what he and his subordinates could have known).
Hammerbolt
Donor
If I remember correctly, the US had declared a "neutral zone" where it protected ships; techincally (a very thin technicallity, but still...) it was just defending those ships...
Yes, but, again, he had everything but the kitchen sink* stacked on the soviet border; every plan, every thought was on the massive assault that was Barborossa, even at the expense of the war vs the UK, which limited to just the U-boats, the tiny Africa Korps and the ocasional raid. To declare war on the US then...
*this being the few units in the Med
In hindsight, maybe the Nazis should have acted like a "peaceful" state that only wanted to release itself from Versailles Treaty...
While concentrating their entire military budget on WMDs and the Amerika Bomber. If they had it before everyone else, they COULD have crushed the USA, Britain AND Soviet Union just with it.
On the long run, their conventional military forces were useless, because they would have necessarily to fight Moscow and London (hard-to-impossible to beat completely with conventional forces) and Washington (instant suicide).
While concentrating their entire military budget on WMDs and the Amerika Bomber. If they had it before everyone else, they COULD have crushed the USA, Britain AND Soviet Union just with it.
On the long run, their conventional military forces were useless, because they would have necessarily to fight Moscow and London (hard-to-impossible to beat completely with conventional forces) and Washington (instant suicide).