What can Germany do starting in December 1,1941 to win or at least get white peace in ww2
- Thread starter Horseshoe
- Start date
Nothing post-Atlantic Charter would save the Nazis. Hitler can't declare war on Japan because that would make him a nominal ally of Britain, which just doesn't work. Roosevelt is already at war in all but name, and he will pounce the first chance he gets. An immediate retreat (that is, one which starts at 0100 on the 1st of December) might mitigate the damage Zhukov can do but it will come with a cost of its own. Pulling such a huge army back under horrible conditions is a risky manoeuvre at best, and would leave the Wehrmacht very vulnerable if the Russians can attack. And even then, that's only delaying the inevitable.
The best thing to do would, as other posters have said, be for Adolf Hitler to keel over dead on 1 December and the subsequent regime to surrender to Britain and Russia... which is of course ASB.
The best thing to do would, as other posters have said, be for Adolf Hitler to keel over dead on 1 December and the subsequent regime to surrender to Britain and Russia... which is of course ASB.
Is this Germany whose word is worth less than piss steam?
Germany who has attacked and conquered virtually every democracy in Europe (and a few other non democracies besides)?
And is this the USA who is creating a 100 division army which has just one job and who is as at war with Germany as it is possible to get without actually being at war?
Just checking like
100 divisions? USA was nowere near creating a 100 division army until December 7 1941.
Yep. Surrender to the Western Allies. America, Britain, and Free France will give Germany a better occupation than the Soviets.
TDM
Kicked
This would only work if the USA was suddenly inflicted with nation wide amnesia
So best that can be done is pull back from the furthest lines in Russia and negotiate a truce for land in Russia with Stalin. Do the same in North Africa with Britain and Co.
(Although I think really Britain and Co will need more than that to even consider a truce)
Depending on how quickly this happens that might make the Japanese pause, since they now no longer have the ongoing conflict in the rest of the world as cover. But I suspect it would take too long (also Germany kind of needs Japan's distraction to encourage the allies to accept this). Japan will still have the same problems that drove it to head south anyway.
Thing is everyone will know that this will be a temporary reprieve from the fighting at best. The USSR and the Reich can't co exist certainly not with shared borders on former soviet territory. Stalin might take the opportunity of a reprieve in fighting to build up and consolidate but he can't let the Germans stay on Soviet territory long term. The stories of German and axis treatment of various groups are just going to keep coming out in the west. And it's in no one's interest outside the Axis to allow the Axis to consolidate. So any plan that leaves the German Reich in anyway intact is only ever going to be a temporary halt to the fighting.
Hitler's pervious actions make any assurances he gives worthless, and sadly one of the lessons of the WW1 armistice and TOV is likely don't stop at the German border and rely on compliance.
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Honestly the US can expect more help from the UK than from Germany. So they would still supply the UK. If Germany is serious about being an ally they can't really attack US shipping to the UK, can they? If they do, they aren't being serious. So it will only be taken serious if accompanied by the actions @TDM just posted.
The only thing a DOW from Germany against Japan would do, is make it a war between three parties. Of which one is only fought on paper. It's the sort of thing that's only happening in games or books.
The first part of your comment would be true just after the Winter War, but no longer in the summer of 1941. The Finnish state and military rebounded admirably from the losses of the Winter War, through improving military training and mobilization, and going on a weapon purchase spree. By the beginning of Barbarossa the Finnish Army was a whole different beast from what it was in late 1939 - early 1940. It had more trained men, and a lot more of all kinds of weapons and materiel. It's readiness for offensive operations was hugely improved. During the Winter War, the Finnish Army could not manage successful attacks to save its life (never mind that it was brilliant on the defensive). In comparison, in the early part of the Continuation War the Finnish advance into Soviet Karelia was quite successful all around.
As for the second part of of your comment, I mostly agree. In the early part of the Continuation War, the Finns did all they could. After the advance phase of 1941 was completed, the Finnish Army had shot its bolt logistically and physically speaking. It had no option but to settle on the defensive. Finland was punching above its weight, it was one of the most heavily mobilized societies among all the combatant nations. The country was top-heavy with military, and having a huge percentage of military-aged men in uniform was very costly for the functioning of the national economy itself. In those conditions, the Finns could ill afford further large-scale offensive operations.
Finland was dependent on Germany for food, fuel and other necessaria. But then the Germans could hardly make the Finns attack by withholding food or fuel deliveries, as not only would that raise anti-German feelings among the Finns, it would also directly serve to make the Finnish military less effective in its operations. Practically, then, what the Germans could do would be to try and bribe the Finns with further resources and goods, to make them commit to further attacks. The Finnish leadership would consider the access to better resources to be the sine qua non of more offensive action, anyway.
Then there's also the fact that Murmansk and Lapland was strictly the Germans' responsibility. The Finns would not send their troops to attack Murmansk itself. What the Finns could do is attack the Murmansk railway further south, to cut it there. The Finns had a plan for attacking Belomorsk to this effect in 1942. IOTL, this plan was scrapped as Mannerheim feared that launching it would lead to a) the Finnish military suffering the kinds of losses it could not bear (see reasons above) and b) the Western Allies becoming so enraged that the US would declare war against Finland (what it never did IOTL).
Now, if Hitler commits to truly bribing the Finns with different things, he just might be able to convince the Finnish leadership to launch a serious attack against the Murmansk railway on the level of Belomorsk. This would mean not only sending the Finns a lot of military goods and other resources, but also committing several German divisions more to Finland to support the Finnish attack, and to then take Murmansk itself as the Finns would not do any follow-up attacks after (and if) Belomorsk is taken.
So, what I am saying is that even if the Germans manage to make the Finns attack the Murmansk railway with some real strength, they would still have to commit a lot more resources and troops, moreso than IOTL, into the northern front, to be able to take Murmansk. These resources and men would naturally have to come somewhere.
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Well, tehre were quite a few men send into the desert.
So instead, Rommel the polar fox?
So instead, Rommel the polar fox?
Given that even the German mountain troops were inept in fighting in the nearly Arctic conditions between Petsamo and Murmansk, and in the sub-Arctic Karelian wilderness, the troops of the OTL Afrika Korps probably are not better for those conditions...
The first thing to do is allow the army to make tactical withdraws on the Eastern Front. It's very late in the season, but the Russians weren't capable of deep penetration offensives. The weather was almost as restrictive to both sides. Give ground, shorten the line, and conserve manpower. Don't declare war on the United States, on December 10th. That could delay American entry into the European war by months.
Conserve strength on the Russian Front in 1942, no drive to the Caucasus. Secure the Crimea, then take Leningrad, to close off the Baltic, and shorten the front, while rebuilding the Panzer Force. Change political policy in the Ukraine, and raise 20 Ukrainian Divisions, to fight the Russians. Focus on the Mediterranean, and take the Suez Cannel. Move Luftwaffe units into French North Africa, and bomb the RN out of Gibraltar. This will starve out Malta, and buy time for the Italian regime. Germany would be in a better position to face the Russians in 1943. The United States might not be able to take major offensive ground action till sometime in 1943. Without the dress rehearsal in North Africa the U.S. Army would be less effective. The U.S. may invade French NA anyway, just do it in the Spring of 1943.
Conserve strength on the Russian Front in 1942, no drive to the Caucasus. Secure the Crimea, then take Leningrad, to close off the Baltic, and shorten the front, while rebuilding the Panzer Force. Change political policy in the Ukraine, and raise 20 Ukrainian Divisions, to fight the Russians. Focus on the Mediterranean, and take the Suez Cannel. Move Luftwaffe units into French North Africa, and bomb the RN out of Gibraltar. This will starve out Malta, and buy time for the Italian regime. Germany would be in a better position to face the Russians in 1943. The United States might not be able to take major offensive ground action till sometime in 1943. Without the dress rehearsal in North Africa the U.S. Army would be less effective. The U.S. may invade French NA anyway, just do it in the Spring of 1943.
But isn't this just prolonging ww2 in Europe by 6-18 months?
Or asked in a different way: How will any of this help get either the Russians, British or Americans to the negotiation table?
Total victory may not be possible, but they could try to fight the Russians till exhaustion, and then come to terms with them. In 1945 the Soviets were near the end of their manpower reserves. The Germans have to play the best options still open to them. Avoiding mass battles of encirclement on the Eastern Front is their only hope, of attaining a draw. The only hope for air defense over Germany is mass deployment of jet fighters, before the American Bomber Offensive reaches it's peak. The Germans need to play for time.
out of curiosity if germany declaring war on Japan Could the third reich try and get a temporary ceasefire with britain and get for example dutch soldiers that are "not loyal" go and defend the east indies perhaps even a jew division signing away their right to live in Europe. The peacefire will probably not hold out but give the NAZI's a diplomatic victory of opening comunications and a invitation for some interview with high ranking propagande officers followed with let's say a footbal competition and some christmas carrols being song.
Would this work? Dutch/french troops would probably be willing to defend the area, perhaps the NAZI's could pressure some troops of spain altough I doubt that last one is possible. That said they can still offer the US to put some pressure on it.
Would this work? Dutch/french troops would probably be willing to defend the area, perhaps the NAZI's could pressure some troops of spain altough I doubt that last one is possible. That said they can still offer the US to put some pressure on it.
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So were the Germans. Much more near the end. They already needed to conscript 16 year olds (and younger) and middle aged men.
thaddeus
Donor
my view they had a lackluster naval campaign both against the Arctic Convoys (which could cause the value of Murmansk to the Soviets to wither had they been reduced) and against the retreating Soviet fleet towards Leningrad (they had much of their ships "bottled up" at Tallinn)
whatever they could still do on both those fronts worthwhile. also Finland had that interesting "elephant gun" rifle effective against tanks? there is some fertile ground to develop their schiessbecher grenade launcher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiessbecher and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_Raketenwerfer_43
that might be the type of weapons they could supply in some numbers to Finland, also the RSO tracked vehicle.
The Soviet evacuation of Tallinn was IOTL one of the bloodiest naval battles in history, period, with the Soviets losing 12 000 or more people and more than 60 ships of different sizes in a couple of days. The Germans and Finns could have arguably inflicted even bigger losses on the Soviets, but I don't think we can call the OTL effort a "lackluster" one.
As it was, the OTL effort by the Germans and Finns was based on the use of mine barrages, light naval forces, and air power. As a result, the German and Finnish losses from this battle were negligible in comparison to the heavy Soviet losses. The operation represented very good "bang for the buck". The Soviet losses could be increased by adding the German navy's heavier forces into the mix as well, but in that case the problem would be that the Germans likely would suffer significantly heavier than IOTL losses themselves, too, and that in vessels they could not easily replace in the short or intermediate term. A narrow and shallow sea area like the Gulf of Finland, riddled with mines, represents a lot of risks every time you send a task force of ships to fight there, and here any bigger ships the Kriegsmarine commits to the battle would be under a major risk of suffering from friendly fire or hitting German or Finnish mines, even before any expected active opposition by the Soviets themselves, or the mines they had laid.
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