What becomes of Maximilian...

[robertp6165]

...if he had refused to accept the Mexican imperial throne from Napoleon III in 1862? What other likely roles could he have played in the history of the later 19th century? Could he, for example, have been considered as a candidate for the Spanish throne when Isabella II was topped in 1868, instead of Leopold von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen?

 

[Blackbeard]

He could have also been sent to Brazil, as a peace between Europe and the Americas. He could have also stayed in the Navy

 

[Matthais Corvinus]

...if he had refused to accept the Mexican imperial throne from Napoleon III in 1862? What other likely roles could he have played in the history of the later 19th century? Could he, for example, have been considered as a candidate for the Spanish throne when Isabella II was topped in 1868, instead of Leopold von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen?

Well, if this doesn't butterfly Rudolf's suicide away, then Max is the heir. Was he or Carlotta the sterile one?

He will also be in country when the Austrian Empire loses to Prussia, and he will be there when the Hungarians force Franz Josef to turn the Austrian Empire into the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Perhaps with the liberal Maximilian available after the '66 war Franz Josef abdicates? With the serious loss to Prussia, Austria is being essentially kicked out of Germany, and Franz Josef's reign could be seen as just a constant stream of defeats. Furthermore, Max probably will be sitting most idle during the years between his being removed from Italy and the Six Weeks War, and I could definitely see Max seeing himself as the only person able to save the Empire from his moron older brother.

Not that under an Emperor Maximilian things would get any better, they would probably just be different kinds of bad. So sick that all medicine is poison and all that . . .

 

[David S Poepoe]

I've always wondered about the Habsburg Italian possessions being organized into a demi-kingdom of its own with Maximilian as king.

 

[DuQuense]

Two For

?Wasn't Max the Governor of Austrian Italy?
An Austrian attempt to reimpose the- Kingdom of North Italy-, May prevent the unification, of Italy.
That would satisfy the- Prevent Italy's unification- Challenge- from a few threads back.

 

[mobius]

?Wasn't Max the Governor of Austrian Italy?
An Austrian attempt to reimpose the- Kingdom of North Italy-, May prevent the unification, of Italy.
That would satisfy the- Prevent Italy's unification- Challenge- from a few threads back.

By 1862 it`s to late to do this. It should have been done before 1859.

 

[Matthais Corvinus]

So in the wake of the loss in 1866, it would appear from the compromise with Hungary that the Hapsburgs' as a House (so probably basically just Princess Sophia-Max and FJ's mother) realized that major, systemic change was necessary in order to save the Empire.

Franz Josef was not a reformer, and was willing to allow the Austro-Hungarian thing to go through only because I think the Hungarians presented him with the option of compromise, with the implicit promise that rebellion that could destroy Austria would result if the offer of compromise was not taken up.

Maximilian, however, was a refomer. The man had managed Italy quite well, and he was ready, willing, and most importantly able, to work with nationalists and liberals. I think that his mother would have seen Maximilian as the man who had the capability of saving the Empire. Indeed, I think that Maximilian would have seen himself as the person who could save the Empire.

So in the wake of the terrible, embarrassing, world-changing loss in the Six Weeks' War, facing a sea change compromise being forced down their throats, and with the memory that Austria had been losing since he took the throne, Franz Josef, after signing the Peace of Prague, abdicates the Austrian throne to his brother Maximilian.

 

[Tocomocho]

...if he had refused to accept the Mexican imperial throne from Napoleon III in 1862? What other likely roles could he have played in the history of the later 19th century? Could he, for example, have been considered as a candidate for the Spanish throne when Isabella II was topped in 1868, instead of Leopold von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen?

Certainly that has potential as a POD for the happiest TL ever. No Mexican Adventure, no Spanish unstability in the late 19th century, no Franco-Prussian War...

 

[Matthais Corvinus]

Certainly that has potential as a POD for the happiest TL ever. No Mexican Adventure, no Spanish unstability in the late 19th century, no Franco-Prussian War...

Why no Franco-Prussian War?

I don't think that Max was going to be sitting on the Spanish throne, and here is why:

In the aftermath of the Six Weeks' War, Napoleon III realizes that he has mis-judged the situation. Prussia is now a huge threat. The North German Confederation is seen, in France, as the embreyonic German state that it was (I believe that this is OTL so far?). So France tries to get some kind of alliance with the Austrians, but the Austrians aren't really having any of it.

The French, after all, were enemies of the Austrians not so long ago, and the French actually took land away from Austria, whereas Prussia just kicked them out of Germany.

In fact kicking them out of Germany wasn't even so bad, because Franz Josef was such a short-sighted conservative that he was so [unwilling to use/unaware of] growing German nationalism that could be used to his advantage. Broadly speaking, the Germans were looking to be united. They offered German leadership to Prussia in '48, but the Prussian King was such a brain-dead Holy Alliance conservative that he wouldn't accept it. If a Hapsburg ruler had been willing to manipulate nationalism for his own gain (a man like, say the Archduke Maximilian comes to mind) then he could have turned the Hapsburg old control over the "First Reich" (the Holy Roman Empire) into a propaganda tool to create a new "Second Reich." The Hapsburgs were ancient and prestigious. If they had gone after leadership of the German nationalist community they could have beaten Prussia for it. But alas.

So France is facing Prussia, who is looking for a chance to unite Germany. Napoleon III, in the back of his little plotting mind, must have seen that Bismarck intended to use a war with France to unite Germany. But he was so confident in French arms that he thought the Prussians could be beaten. Obviously he was wrong.

Maximilian was not a good candidate for the Spanish throne. He had no sons, and I think that it would have been clear by '68 (since it was certainly clear in '63 when they adopted the Iturbides) that either him or his wife was sterile. He was a Hapsburg, in fact the brother to the current Austro-Hungarian Emperor-King, thus a party to the recent unpleasentness between Prussia and Austria.

That means that once he dies, his heir will be another Hapsburg, someone who was not raised in Spain, and though Maximilian may have been a charmingly liberal guy, proof that even the Hapsburg in their inbred retarded/conservative gene pool can produce a semi-intelligent liberal from time to time, the Spaniards own experience tells them that Maximilian's Hapsburg heir will not be in the same liberal mold.

So they might be a few good years out of the man, and it will be great. But hanging over them will be the fact that the man will die, without issue (except if his wife dies, or he divorces her, so maybe we can make her fall off of a horse sometime before '68) and his heir will be a Hapsburg. If his heir is not a Hapsburg, that means the Spanish government will have to search all over again for a new royal family, so why not find some acceptably fertile prince now, and avoid all the potential unpleasantness?

 

[David S Poepoe]

I believe that it was actually Carlota that couldn't have children. I believe that Maximilian did have one child by a Mexican woman.

 

[Tocomocho]

...

As strange as it sounds, I knew Maximilian and Carlota didn't have children, and that they adopted the Iturbide kids yet I didn't think till this moment that they could be unable to produce children of their own (!). Certainly that changes a lot of things then.

About the no Franco-Prussian War part, I suppose there would be a conflict between France and Prussia at some point, no matter what. But without the Hohenzollern catalyst said conflict could be delayed some years, maybe even till after the death of Napoleon III (unlikely, but possible). By the time the war came, the French strategy could be different, as could be the diplomatic position of France in Europe. Perhaps Max is able to work as the necessary bridge between France and Austria, so when Prussia finally goes to war against France, she finds with an unexpected second front on her back.

 

[Matthais Corvinus]

As strange as it sounds, I knew Maximilian and Carlota didn't have children, and that they adopted the Iturbide kids yet I didn't think till this moment that they could be unable to produce children of their own (!). Certainly that changes a lot of things then.

About the no Franco-Prussian War part, I suppose there would be a conflict between France and Prussia at some point, no matter what. But without the Hohenzollern catalyst said conflict could be delayed some years, maybe even till after the death of Napoleon III (unlikely, but possible). By the time the war came, the French strategy could be different, as could be the diplomatic position of France in Europe. Perhaps Max is able to work as the necessary bridge between France and Austria, so when Prussia finally goes to war against France, she finds with an unexpected second front on her back.

Bismarck absolutely had the potential second front in his mind when he did what he did vis a vis the French in OTL Franco-Prussian War. As it was OTL all of Germany (save Austria) was with Prussia in the Franco-Prussian War, because the French were seen as the aggressors. If Prussia were the aggressor then Austria could probably get itself involved back in German affairs, via its former allies in Southern Germany. By creating France as the aggressor, Bismarck made sure that the Austrians couldn't intervene in the Franco-Prussian War.

So I would say that what you would need is a bigger impetus for the Austrians to hate the Prussians. As I stated in a previous post, the Austrians had more reason to hate the French than to hate the Prussians, because the Prussians took no territory from them.

Well, let's change that. William I has a fit and makes Bismarck annex some chunk of Austria. Instant sea change in the way Austria views Prussia. With the "stolen" territory, Austria is ready for a fight. In fact this may wake Franz Josef out of his stupor and mean that he is actually ready to fight Prussia for German supremacy (I know, I'm an optimist). Carlota dies in '67, and Max uses the opportunity to start forcing some foreign policy down his moron brother's throat. He travels to France on a tour, and while there he speaks to Napoleon III about his desire for an alliance between the French and the Austrians. He offers to marry a member of the Bonaparte House, but there are precious few available, and even less who are politically acceptable to Napoleon. One however, Anne Murat, the grand-daughter of Caroline Bonaparte and her husband the Marshall Murat, is in France and is acceptable. Maximilian isn't thrilled, but he also needs something to force his brother's hand, so he marries Anne (she had kids which is why I picked her, plus she is the women I found who is of age and politically acceptable on Wikipedia).

With their mother suffering from cancer, Maximilian becomes an increasingly powerful presence at the Hapsburg Court. With his Bonaparte bride

 

[DuQuense]

...if he had refused to accept the Mexican imperial throne from Napoleon III in 1862?

?Could Napoleon have offered the Throne to one of the Iturbides?

* HIH Don Agustin Jerónimo de Iturbide y Huarte, Prince Imperial of Mexico (1807 - 1866)
* HH Doña Sabina de Iturbide y Huarte (1809 - 1871)
* HH Doña Juana María de Iturbide y Huarte (1811 - 1828)
* HH Doña Josefa de Iturbide y Huarte (1814 - 1891)
* HH Don Ángel de Iturbide y Huarte (1816 - 1872) father of Agustín de Iturbide y Green
* HH Doña María Isis de Iturbide y Huarte (1818 - 1849)
* HH Doña María de los Dolores de Iturbide y Huarte (1819 - 1820)
* HH Don Salvador de Iturbide y Huarte (1820 - 1856) father of Salvador de Iturbide y de Marzán
* HH Don Felipe Andrés María Guadalupe de Iturbide y Huarte (1822 - 1853)
* HH Don Agustín Cosme de Iturbide y Huarte (1824 - 1873)

?WI one of then had accepted?

 

[Gonzaga]

?Could Napoleon have offered the Throne to one of the Iturbides?

?WI one of then had accepted?

It can be crazy, but what about one of the Iturbides accepting to marry a relative of Napoleon III? Then I believe he would support an Iturbide for Mexican Emperor.

 

[Matthais Corvinus]

It can be crazy, but what about one of the Iturbides accepting to marry a relative of Napoleon III? Then I believe he would support an Iturbide for Mexican Emperor.

The result might be a much more successful Mexican Empire. Among the problems that Maximilian had was that he was very much a liberal, and kept many of Juarez's reforms (reforms that made the conservatives look for foreign assistance to begin with) which ended whatever local support he could have gained from the native conservatives. If you have an Iturbide as the Emperor, then I think that you could rely on that person to slavishly follow the wishes of the Mexican conservatives, and produce a more locally acceptable government.

Was there an Iturbide available however? And if there was, was there also a Bonaparte available? Perhaps Anna Murat (Caroline Bonaparte's grand daughter), who I had marrying Maximilian (in an attempt to turn Franz Josef's foreign policy in a more pro-French policy) marries the male Iturbide?

 

[Matthais Corvinus]

Bismarck absolutely had the potential second front in his mind when he did what he did vis a vis the French in OTL Franco-Prussian War. As it was OTL all of Germany (save Austria) was with Prussia in the Franco-Prussian War, because the French were seen as the aggressors. If Prussia were the aggressor then Austria could probably get itself involved back in German affairs, via its former allies in Southern Germany. By creating France as the aggressor, Bismarck made sure that the Austrians couldn't intervene in the Franco-Prussian War.

So I would say that what you would need is a bigger impetus for the Austrians to hate the Prussians. As I stated in a previous post, the Austrians had more reason to hate the French than to hate the Prussians, because the Prussians took no territory from them.

Well, let's change that. William I has a fit and makes Bismarck annex some chunk of Austria. Instant sea change in the way Austria views Prussia. With the "stolen" territory, Austria is ready for a fight. In fact this may wake Franz Josef out of his stupor and mean that he is actually ready to fight Prussia for German supremacy (I know, I'm an optimist). Carlota dies in '67, and Max uses the opportunity to start forcing some foreign policy down his moron brother's throat. He travels to France on a tour, and while there he speaks to Napoleon III about his desire for an alliance between the French and the Austrians. He offers to marry a member of the Bonaparte House, but there are precious few available, and even less who are politically acceptable to Napoleon. One however, Anne Murat, the grand-daughter of Caroline Bonaparte and her husband the Marshall Murat, is in France and is acceptable. Maximilian isn't thrilled, but he also needs something to force his brother's hand, so he marries Anne (she had kids which is why I picked her, plus she is the women I found who is of age and politically acceptable on Wikipedia).

With their mother suffering from cancer, Maximilian becomes an increasingly powerful presence at the Hapsburg Court. With his Bonaparte bride

Sorry didn't finish this post.

Maximilian basically becomes the driving force of the Austrian court and convinces his brother to sign an alliance treaty with the French, guaranteeing Austrian support of the French in the event of war with Prussia. With Austria now in an alliance with the French, and the Hapsburgs orchestrating a campaign to get the south Germans back on her side, Bismarck is worrying. The Franco-Austrian alliance means that Bismarck's Ems Telegram is not so powerful. Napoleon III soon gets very sick, and is no longer able to lead his country. He abdicates his throne in 1874 or thereabouts to his now 18 year old son. Napoleon IV arranges marriage to Queen Victoria's youngest daughter, Princess Beatrice, and with the link to the British and the alliance with the Austrians Bismarck sees that it is no longer possible to force a conflict with the French.

Maximilian's successful campaign to get the alliance with the French demonstrates his increasing power within the Hapsburg court. He also begins to produce children with his wife Anna.

 

[Gonzaga]

Was there an Iturbide available however? And if there was, was there also a Bonaparte available? Perhaps Anna Murat (Caroline Bonaparte's grand daughter), who I had marrying Maximilian (in an attempt to turn Franz Josef's foreign policy in a more pro-French policy) marries the male Iturbide?

Unfortunately no. There was Agustin Jeronimo, but he was living in New York and died in 1866 (well, they would not have how to know he was going to die though). There was also Agustin Cosme (born in 1824), but I don't know if he was married.

 

[Glen]

Whatever his alternate fate, its likely a happier one.

Don't know where he'd best fit.

 

[Matthais Corvinus]

Definitely a happier fate for Maximilian, I agree. Do you think that he would be able to gain enough influence in the Austrian court to force an alliance with the French?

I think that if he didn't gain that influence, then the Spanish throne would be open, and I think that by 1868, with his influence waning in Austria (if he was un-able to force the French alliance), then he would be willing to give up his place in the Austrian line of succession in order to get the Spanish throne (after all, he gave up his place in the Austrian line of succession to get the MEXICAN throne).

If we still want to involve Max in American affairs, then we could marry him to Princess Leopoldina of Brazil after Carlota dies in the '60's. Leopoldina had children, which means that if Max was not the infertile one in the Carlota-Max marriage, we can look forward to at least one more generation of Spanish Hapsburgs.

What would Maximilian do as the King of Spain? Perhaps with a more liberal administration in Spain, we could see a not so brutal administration in Cuba and no Spanish-American War?

 

[Gonzaga]

If we still want to involve Max in American affairs, then we could marry him to Princess Leopoldina of Brazil after Carlota dies in the '60's. Leopoldina had children, which means that if Max was not the infertile one in the Carlota-Max marriage, we can look forward to at least one more generation of Spanish Hapsburgs.

If you want to involve Max in Brazilian affairs, make him not marrying Charlotte in 1857, and going to visit the Brazilian rainforest, as he wanted around 1859. Then he could marry Isabel, the eldest daughter of Pedro II, and he would be the probable Brazilian emperor consort if the Republic is not proclaimed. We would have the Habsburgs in Brazil.