What are some of the major difficulties Habsburgs would face for restoring HRE?

With a PoD between 1789-1848, reach the pictured border before February 14th 1915. Only the green part, disregard other colors.
This is the ATL I am working on right now, with a lot of the information and problems discussed back in this old thread, it took me a while to try re-simulate the events but I keep feels something is missing. What are some of the problems and challenge that would rise up if Austria decide to restore the HRE, and what are some of the problems that would rise up after the restoration?
Currently the planned restoration date is 1870/12/24, crowned by the Pope in Rome.
Some of the problems that I currently have that are unable or bit too implausible to solve:
  1. How to prevent British intervention in Franco-Austrian war in 1870, France is the aggressor. (current solution: beat down France fast enough to make Britain unable to intervene in time.)
  2. How to Liberate Balkan from Ottoman without the revolution dominoing into the empire.
  3. How to not sign Geneva convention without becoming a pariah internationally.
  4. How to prevent internal conflict without making everyone mad.
  5. How to avoid direct confrontation with Britain before 1915/2/14.

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Ok, the problem is that the Holy Roman Empire by this point is little more than a legal formality. Since it is a legal fiction instead of a pure fiction, I suppose it could be recreated with military force. I just can't imagine it being done. Since the War of Austria Succession the OTL Hapsburgs were... mostly big losers when it came to wars. Their glory days were over and the Theresian reforms merely put off the inevitable for a few generations. To restore the HRE, we need to go back to the War of Austrian Succession... and probably before that since their army had leadership problems during the war. In fact, I don't think you're getting any reasonable POD to this later than 1735. Sorry.

OK let's go with the issues you had

1) If the Hapsburgs reach the point you had in TTL (problematic for all the reasons I described), the solution of a fast victory doesn't seem implausible. On the Savoy front, just hunker down in a few fort. On the Rhine front, repeat OTL Franco-Prussian War,

2) Just make Bulgaria. Croatia is technically a Hapsburg domain anyways. Don't let states like Bosnia form. Alternately, let the revolution occur in the empire, but crush it.

3) If the Geneva convention is like OTL, this isn't possible. You can make TTL convention do something like... include rights for Partisans (un-uniformed combatants) to not be killed without trial. Such a stupid clause would give the Imperials plenty of justification to not sign it and still be respwected.
 
Ok, the problem is that the Holy Roman Empire by this point is little more than a legal formality. Since it is a legal fiction instead of a pure fiction, I suppose it could be recreated with military force. I just can't imagine it being done. Since the War of Austria Succession the OTL Hapsburgs were... mostly big losers when it came to wars. Their glory days were over and the Theresian reforms merely put off the inevitable for a few generations. To restore the HRE, we need to go back to the War of Austrian Succession... and probably before that since their army had leadership problems during the war. In fact, I don't think you're getting any reasonable POD to this later than 1735. Sorry.

OK let's go with the issues you had

1) If the Hapsburgs reach the point you had in TTL (problematic for all the reasons I described), the solution of a fast victory doesn't seem implausible. On the Savoy front, just hunker down in a few fort. On the Rhine front, repeat OTL Franco-Prussian War,

2) Just make Bulgaria. Croatia is technically a Hapsburg domain anyways. Don't let states like Bosnia form. Alternately, let the revolution occur in the empire, but crush it.

3) If the Geneva convention is like OTL, this isn't possible. You can make TTL convention do something like... include rights for Partisans (un-uniformed combatants) to not be killed without trial. Such a stupid clause would give the Imperials plenty of justification to not sign it and still be respwected.
Thank you for the reply.
IMK, some of the military defeat are purely because of FJI's stupidity which could be avoided.
Making 1789 as earliest PoD was just me trying to not stretch it too long, and keep the time within 4 generations of people.
When a person is dying, they have a momentary recovery of consciousness just before death; when the sun sets, it's last radiance are the brightest of all. I'm trying to portray the empire as such, Habsburgs last dying glory before total collapse.
2) I'm currently planning to throw out Albania, Montenegro and Bulgaria, and give land to Serbia and Greece. Russian take the black sea coast line all the way down to Constantinople.
3) It's mostly because of sovereignty question, I'm trying to portray the empire not recognizing Swiss independence, and make it similar to China mainland-Taiwan relation, anything proposed by Swiss would be ignored/denied by the empire.
 
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Avoid FZI's stupidity gives Austria a breather, but doesn't make it strong enough to reassert dominance over Prussia.

2) Serbia might provoke a revolution. You can simply have it crushed if you want
 
The earlier the POD the Better as reining in the Hohenzollerns could prove anywhere from difficult to basically impossible if you wait too long.
Now if you can keep the Hohenzollerns down, then perhaps the HRE could be used as a vehicle for German unification by German nationalists, the issue you have there is many won't like all of these non-Germans in the empire but should a more moderate faction of German nationalists win out it could be done, you would just have a group of unhappy Germans looking to cast off the "non-German" territories (I use quotes because I'm sure some of the territories they will want to keep won't be entirely German) but they shouldn't be too much of a problem as long as the empire remains stable.
 
Once the War of Austrian Succession passes, the best the Hapsburgs can hope for is a Bismarck style alliance. Since winning the war probably needs a POD before the war (unless something stupid like fog messes things up and helps the Pragmatic Allies multiple times beat the better French and Prussian armies), then I put it at 1735 at the latest (reforms take time)
 
The earlier the POD the Better as reining in the Hohenzollerns could prove anywhere from difficult to basically impossible if you wait too long.
Now if you can keep the Hohenzollerns down, then perhaps the HRE could be used as a vehicle for German unification by German nationalists, the issue you have there is many won't like all of these non-Germans in the empire but should a more moderate faction of German nationalists win out it could be done, you would just have a group of unhappy Germans looking to cast off the "non-German" territories (I use quotes because I'm sure some of the territories they will want to keep won't be entirely German) but they shouldn't be too much of a problem as long as the empire remains stable.
I'm trying to de-nationalist the German realms, since the Kings and Dukes won't be happy to lose their lands, perhaps Austria could work with them to suppress nationalist movement and try to make the empire back to a time when nationalism wasn't a big deal?
 
I'm trying to de-nationalist the German realms, since the Kings and Dukes won't be happy to lose their lands, perhaps Austria could work with them to suppress nationalist movement and try to make the empire back to a time when nationalism wasn't a big deal?
That's going to be difficult as without a nationalist urge to unite there is no reason for the various rulers of the HRE to surrender any of their power to the emperor short of conquest.
 
With a PoD between 1789-1848, reach the pictured border before February 2nd 1915. Only the green part, disregard other colors.

Why does the Empire include Bosnia, Hungary, Dalmatia, Istria, Venice, Prussia, Posen, and Schleswig, which were never part of the HRE, but not the Low Countries and Switzerland, which were?

I just spent an hour on a TL for this, and then clicked the wrong thing and lost it.

Herewith a short version:

From another forum:

> In 1789, during one of the Russian-Ottoman wars of
> Catherine II, Russian representative in Florence, general
> Zaborovsky, had been hiring mercenaries for the Russian
> military operations on the Mediterranian. One of the
> rejected applicants was French lieutenant Napoleone
> Buonaparte. Application had been rejected because by this
> time Zaborovsky developed unfavorable opinion of the
> Corsicans (70 of them had been hired previous year) and
> because lieutenant was insolent enough to ask for major's
> rank.

PoD: Buonaparte goes to Russia. He finds Russian manners and commanders intolerable. Russia was fighting Turkey in alliance with Austria; at a joint battle, Buonaparte comes to the attention of Austrian officers, and changes armies.

Buonaparte rises to high rank in Austria. He saves Austria from near-destruction by Revolutionary France. The crisis also leads to drastic restructuring of the Austrian state, with "new men" coming to the fore (like Buonaparte). After some pulling and hauling, Buonaparte becomes the effective ruler of Austria, as Regent for a child Emperor, who is betrothed and eventually married to Buonaparte's daughter by a Habsburg wife. (I borrow the pattern from the Shoguns of Japan.)

Buonaparte defeats France and crushes Prussia, which is forced to accept Imperial suzerainty over the whole Kingdom. Buonaparte and his fellow "new men" expand their restructuring to Germany in general. By a series of Imperial decrees, all territory of ecclesiastical states, Imperial Cities, Imperial Knights, and petty princes is consolidated into provinces under direct Imperial rule. Some of the greater princes get with the program and receive additional territory. The hold-outs, and those allied with France (e.g. Bavaria and Saxony), are forced to abdicate on grounds of illness or insanity. (Buonaparte is nothing if not ruthless.) They are succeeded by child heirs betrothed to Buonaparte girls with Buonaparte regents. (Or girls and regents from other "new men" families; Buonaparte is smart enough to spread the goodies around.) Denmark fights, and loses both Holstein and Schleswig.

Galicia, Hungary, and Venetia are added to the Empire. The college of Imperial Electors is greatly expanded.

The Empire sees the start of industrialization. The process continues under Buonaparte's eldest son, as clever and ruthless as his father. The Emperor remains a figurehead; as he is somewhat simple-minded, this is not a problem.The Buonapartes make use of Germany's liberals as political allies, gratifying them with token representative government, and by sweeping away Germany's encrustations of archaic laws and authorities. Buonaparte keeps control by mustering non-German troops (Poles, Magyars, Czechs) to put down German unrest, and vice versa.

France becomes alarmed at the rise of the Empire, and together with Savoy, attacks in 1846. The younger Buonaparte is no field commander, but he expertly drives mobilization of the Empire's immense resources for a decisive war. Savoy is incorporated into the Empire, and enlarged with a chunk of France. In a second war in 1874, the Empire takes northeastern France.

However, in the wake of this triumph, the Empire undergoes a political upheaval, which pits the new Emperor (the simpleton's nephew) and liberal forces against the Buonaparte regime. The rising industrialists and urban working class demand power. The third Buonaparte "regent" is clumsy, and is pushed out.

There you go...
 
Why does the Empire include Bosnia, Hungary, Dalmatia, Istria, Venice, Prussia, Posen, and Schleswig, which were never part of the HRE, but not the Low Countries and Switzerland, which were?

I just spent an hour on a TL for this, and then clicked the wrong thing and lost it.

Herewith a short version:

From another forum:

> In 1789, during one of the Russian-Ottoman wars of
> Catherine II, Russian representative in Florence, general
> Zaborovsky, had been hiring mercenaries for the Russian
> military operations on the Mediterranian. One of the
> rejected applicants was French lieutenant Napoleone
> Buonaparte. Application had been rejected because by this
> time Zaborovsky developed unfavorable opinion of the
> Corsicans (70 of them had been hired previous year) and
> because lieutenant was insolent enough to ask for major's
> rank.

PoD: Buonaparte goes to Russia. He finds Russian manners and commanders intolerable. Russia was fighting Turkey in alliance with Austria; at a joint battle, Buonaparte comes to the attention of Austrian officers, and changes armies.

Buonaparte rises to high rank in Austria. He saves Austria from near-destruction by Revolutionary France. The crisis also leads to drastic restructuring of the Austrian state, with "new men" coming to the fore (like Buonaparte). After some pulling and hauling, Buonaparte becomes the effective ruler of Austria, as Regent for a child Emperor, who is betrothed and eventually married to Buonaparte's daughter by a Habsburg wife. (I borrow the pattern from the Shoguns of Japan.)

Buonaparte defeats France and crushes Prussia, which is forced to accept Imperial suzerainty over the whole Kingdom. Buonaparte and his fellow "new men" expand their restructuring to Germany in general. By a series of Imperial decrees, all territory of ecclesiastical states, Imperial Cities, Imperial Knights, and petty princes is consolidated into provinces under direct Imperial rule. Some of the greater princes get with the program and receive additional territory. The hold-outs, and those allied with France (e.g. Bavaria and Saxony), are forced to abdicate on grounds of illness or insanity. (Buonaparte is nothing if not ruthless.) They are succeeded by child heirs betrothed to Buonaparte girls with Buonaparte regents. (Or girls and regents from other "new men" families; Buonaparte is smart enough to spread the goodies around.) Denmark fights, and loses both Holstein and Schleswig.

Galicia, Hungary, and Venetia are added to the Empire. The college of Imperial Electors is greatly expanded.

The Empire sees the start of industrialization. The process continues under Buonaparte's eldest son, as clever and ruthless as his father. The Emperor remains a figurehead; as he is somewhat simple-minded, this is not a problem.The Buonapartes make use of Germany's liberals as political allies, gratifying them with token representative government, and by sweeping away Germany's encrustations of archaic laws and authorities. Buonaparte keeps control by mustering non-German troops (Poles, Magyars, Czechs) to put down German unrest, and vice versa.

France becomes alarmed at the rise of the Empire, and together with Savoy, attacks in 1846. The younger Buonaparte is no field commander, but he expertly drives mobilization of the Empire's immense resources for a decisive war. Savoy is incorporated into the Empire, and enlarged with a chunk of France. In a second war in 1874, the Empire takes northeastern France.

However, in the wake of this triumph, the Empire undergoes a political upheaval, which pits the new Emperor (the simpleton's nephew) and liberal forces against the Buonaparte regime. The rising industrialists and urban working class demand power. The third Buonaparte "regent" is clumsy, and is pushed out.

There you go...
Thank you very much for this interesting TL!
The reason the Empire included those land which were not historically HRE was because, it's Habsburg's final try to become a great empire again, they're giving everything they had, after that, Austria rise and die with the empire, never to be separated. The day of Imperial demise would be the same day of Austrian demise.
 

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Otto von Bismarck in the 1830s meets a really charismatic bishop who converts him to Catholicism. However now being a "heretic" this causes him to be estranged by his family. He goes to Vienna and, still quite wealthy, starts training to be a diplomat for the Habsburg Empire. Being a Prussian who converted to Catholicism, he is seen as a useful asset to convince north Germans to the Habsburg cause, so he works his way up the ranks like he did in Prussia. The Imperial Council of the Austrian Empire should form earlier than 1861 ITTL to give Bismarck a longer time to influence, although he can start in the Imperial Diet of the German Confederation. From here, Bismarck acts loyally to the Austrian Empire with the goal of German unification. We can assume that France wins the Rhine Crisis in 1840, putting Prussia into crisis. Bismarck, who eventually becomes second in command of the Austrian Empire, could regain the land west of the Rhine to attain the loyalty of the non-Prussian German states, and then defeat Prussia in a war to unite it into the German Confederation.

In the meantime, Prime Minister Bismarck and some members of the Habsburg family meet an archaeologist who studies artifacts of the old Holy Roman Emperors, such as Charlemagne, the Ottonian dynasty, and Frederick I and II Barbarossa. This, and victory against the French as revenge against Napoleon, causes an obsession with the Holy Roman Empire, in which the ruling class takes a keen interest. With Germany and Hungary united under Habsburg rule, the Holy Roman Empire is declared restored, though it is synonymous with German Confederation or German Empire. The Holy Roman Empire is seen as a way to unite Catholics and reactionaries, German or not German, while German Empire is seen as a way to unite Germans, Catholic or not Catholic.
 
3) It's mostly because of sovereignty question, I'm trying to portray the empire not recognizing Swiss independence, and make it similar to China mainland-Taiwan relation, anything proposed by Swiss would be ignored/denied by the empire.

Switzerland, being surrounded by Imperial land, would be in a much poorer position to ignore the HRE than Taiwan is to ignore the People's Republic.

That's going to be difficult as without a nationalist urge to unite there is no reason for the various rulers of the HRE to surrender any of their power to the emperor short of conquest.

The easiest way would be to have some sort of common enemy to unite against. Russia-wank, perhaps?
 
Switzerland, being surrounded by Imperial land, would be in a much poorer position to ignore the HRE than Taiwan is to ignore the People's Republic.
The easiest way would be to have some sort of common enemy to unite against. Russia-wank, perhaps?
A direct invasion of Switzerland would be disastrous due to terrain and logistics, and would seriously damage the empire's reputation and would likely to get interfered by other powers. An embargo severe enough to starve them to death would also not be feasible, since the majorty of the Imperial citizens are German and would not be happy to act so cruel toward fellow German brothers. So the re-integration progress has stuck in current situation, HRE denies/ignore all Swiss proposal and at the same time allow supplies go in.

I currently plans to make France fascist during TTL WW1, and fight much fiercer than OTL. Also, Ottoman would be a great target as the enemy, before been partitioned and kicked out of Europe anyway.
 
Thank you very much for this interesting TL!

OK! My basic idea was that if one is going to turn the Austrian-controlled HRE into a powerful state, one needs a really talented man to do the work - and if anyone in that era could do it, it would be Napoleon.

I don't think he was ever a French patriot - he was for a while a Corsican nationalist. His real drive was his own ambition, and if another country's service was a bigger opportunity, he'd switch over without a twinge. A century before, Prince Eugene left France for Austria for that reason, and became Austria's greatest soldier.

But it would be almost impossible for Napoleon to become Emperor - so he becomes the power behind the Emperor. It worked for a millenium in Japan.
 
The HRE was severely weakened from its peak, but it is simply not true to say it was a legal fiction at this point. The British invested vast amounts of money in their failed imperial election scheme, designed to deny the Habsburgs the imperial title, which they would never have done if it didn't really matter. In international diplomacy throughout the 18th Century, the institutions of the Empire and the commitments of being a member played a genuine role in shaping policies of war and peace.
 
The HRE was severely weakened from its peak, but it is simply not true to say it was a legal fiction at this point. The British invested vast amounts of money in their failed imperial election scheme, designed to deny the Habsburgs the imperial title, which they would never have done if it didn't really matter. In international diplomacy throughout the 18th Century, the institutions of the Empire and the commitments of being a member played a genuine role in shaping policies of war and peace.
Interesting, I never knew that British had invested in Imperial election, thanks for the information.
 
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