Inspired by Alternate History Hub's new video (
, thread on the video in general here- https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/thoughts-on-alternative-history-hubs-new-video.495651), how would a Byzantine Empire with pre-Manzikert borders influence the Protestant Reformation? Martin Luther believed the Greek Church had deviated from early Christianity far less than the Roman Catholic church due to it's rejection of doctrines such as indulgences and papal primacy. Given this, would it be possible that Luther goes to the ERE? How would much different would Luther be influenced theologically by a surviving Orthodox Mediterranean empire?
What are potential effects of a surviving Byzantium on Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation?
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WEEEEEELLL...
Um, Martin Luther becomes a Orthodox? and becomes an agent of the Orthodox church and spreads the orthodox beliefs throught the Latin world?
cody assumes that a person similar to him would exist but would the condtions of the 16th century church and its corruption exist
It just seems like a silly, surface-level assumption that a “Reformation” is bound to happen by some inevitable law of it Being the Sixteenth Century like this is EU4 or something. The Catholic Church lasted for hundreds of years with just as much blatant corruption without a similar movement.
Eh well there where sings before Dante in 1300 goes on the poor state of the church the whole hussite controversy was one of the most successful pre reformation revolts against the Catholics of course jonh Huss was not Luther but there where cracks showing for about centuries but as the hre becoming moot and then after the whole Western schism and the papacy having more power it makes sense why Luther did what he did he was not the first to question the Catholic Church in fact he didn't want to split of mearly reform but hey alternative martin could end up like jonh Huss depends on how bad church corruption gets and if the printing press is invited in this timeline and if a stupid thing like the western schism occurs to tarnish the prestige of the Catholic Church
Luther was inspired by otl's russian orthodoxy. There's no reason to assume another would-be reformer couldn't be inspired by them and the byzantines.
I really do not like this guy because he is a one-track mind saying the Crusades had no effect on history is stupid the reason why the Crusades were so effective was because a lot of these Crusaders were Veterans of the wars against the Vikings no Crusades there's a whole lot of mercenaries in Europe. an to say that Pope Urban started the first holy war on the Christian side is foolish the Reconquista was a giant holy war that lasted 781 years also it is the longest war in human history. sorry needed to get that off my chest
the big thing is you need to have a more successful Third Crusade and avoid The Fourth Crusade
Frederick I, Holy Roman Emperor is going to need to survive at least a few more years if he can fight his way down to Jerusalem with a sizable Army like a wrecking ball our favorite Egyptian Sultan is going to have to fall back if Jerusalem is recaptured along with a lot of the former kingdoms land it will take a lot of pressure off of the byzantines
and if the Fourth Crusade actually goes down to Egypt and attacks Alexandria then we have a whole new ballgame and then we have the good old Mongolians coming in destroying everything in their path
In this scenario I see the kingdom of Jerusalem lasting quite a bit longer possibly into the mid 1300 and taking a lot of pressure off of the byzantines how will be able to focus on the Turks I'm quite curious if in this scenario the golden horde doesn't convert to Islam because the byzantines are still fighting for control over modern-day turkey probably looking like they're going to win and the Crusader states are still around to some extent to be honest I think the kingdom of Cyprus will still be around well into the 1500s.
but now we reached the point of when Martin Luther was born I think many people seem to forgetthe Bohemian religious reforms the Hussite Reformation
which is most likely butterflyed away because sigismund of Hungary will never be made Holy Roman Empire because there are no ottomans at the gate.
there's my opinion on what's going on historically
religiously I don't see a Reformation happening in Germany maybe it starts in Scandinavia hell maybe in Poland.the German princes will be back stabbing each other but without the Ottomans in Europe they're not going to be putting anyone like Sigismund on the throne
the big thing is you need to have a more successful Third Crusade and avoid The Fourth Crusade
Frederick I, Holy Roman Emperor is going to need to survive at least a few more years if he can fight his way down to Jerusalem with a sizable Army like a wrecking ball our favorite Egyptian Sultan is going to have to fall back if Jerusalem is recaptured along with a lot of the former kingdoms land it will take a lot of pressure off of the byzantines
and if the Fourth Crusade actually goes down to Egypt and attacks Alexandria then we have a whole new ballgame and then we have the good old Mongolians coming in destroying everything in their path
In this scenario I see the kingdom of Jerusalem lasting quite a bit longer possibly into the mid 1300 and taking a lot of pressure off of the byzantines how will be able to focus on the Turks I'm quite curious if in this scenario the golden horde doesn't convert to Islam because the byzantines are still fighting for control over modern-day turkey probably looking like they're going to win and the Crusader states are still around to some extent to be honest I think the kingdom of Cyprus will still be around well into the 1500s.
but now we reached the point of when Martin Luther was born I think many people seem to forgetthe Bohemian religious reforms the Hussite Reformation
which is most likely butterflyed away because sigismund of Hungary will never be made Holy Roman Empire because there are no ottomans at the gate.
there's my opinion on what's going on historically
religiously I don't see a Reformation happening in Germany maybe it starts in Scandinavia hell maybe in Poland.the German princes will be back stabbing each other but without the Ottomans in Europe they're not going to be putting anyone like Sigismund on the throne
And maybe the Orthodox would be inspired by Prods. 'If God spares me, I will see that every boy at the plow knows more scripture than you' might inspire 'If God spares Constantinople, we will see every Greek and Slav peasant knows more scripture than you Roman churchmen'. A surviving Byzantium might ally with Jon Hus.
Geopolitically speaking the change might not be that great (if they keep the pre mantzikert borders more or less intact as proposed by OP):
They are bound to play a similar role than the Ottomans did in many sense:
1. They will continue to be the main enemy of Iran - like the Ottomans
2. They will be clashing with germans/Habsburgs/catholics with Hungary as the likely battleground (as it was OTL before Mantzikert) and are a natural ally of France
3. Tough they will likely never become as strong and as much a threat as the Ottomans (religious differences) they also likely wont fall as low. So they are likely weaker in the 16-17 century than the ottomans were they also wont become the sick man of Europe nearly as much as the ottomans have. Though I think it unlikely that they will do well in the 19th century just not as bad as the Otto's.
4. The big difference might be their relations with the russians and todays ukraine is a place were they will have a vastly different effect than the turks. First they wont be supporters and close allies of the crimean tartars and their interference in the region is likely much less. This leaves a vacuum of power that either the russians or the commonwelth is going to fill - much earlier than OTL. So likely an earlier strong Russia who however wont have any religious grounds of interfering in the Balkans. I also see a lot of intermarriages between the romans and the russians - they will be the only 2 orthodox great powers,
They are bound to play a similar role than the Ottomans did in many sense:
1. They will continue to be the main enemy of Iran - like the Ottomans
2. They will be clashing with germans/Habsburgs/catholics with Hungary as the likely battleground (as it was OTL before Mantzikert) and are a natural ally of France
3. Tough they will likely never become as strong and as much a threat as the Ottomans (religious differences) they also likely wont fall as low. So they are likely weaker in the 16-17 century than the ottomans were they also wont become the sick man of Europe nearly as much as the ottomans have. Though I think it unlikely that they will do well in the 19th century just not as bad as the Otto's.
4. The big difference might be their relations with the russians and todays ukraine is a place were they will have a vastly different effect than the turks. First they wont be supporters and close allies of the crimean tartars and their interference in the region is likely much less. This leaves a vacuum of power that either the russians or the commonwelth is going to fill - much earlier than OTL. So likely an earlier strong Russia who however wont have any religious grounds of interfering in the Balkans. I also see a lot of intermarriages between the romans and the russians - they will be the only 2 orthodox great powers,
By the way, is it known if Martin Luther had a theological opinion on Byzanz or the Greek Orthodox Church ? He had been born only 30 years after the fall of Byzantium.
When would you say Hungary was particularly contested between the eastern empire and the western one?
Italy seems to have been a lot more attractive in my reading.
So far as any Martin Luther type figure, you might see that influenced by the ERE, you might see them see the ERE as even worse than the Catholic Church - depends too much on the individual and what influences them. Someone trying seems reasonably likely (it's not like people questioning the Pope is likely to disappear), but OTL is not a guaranteed path as to when or where or to what extent.
They're more likely to have a fairly profound effect on the Middle East than on any reformation movement, IMO - if the empire of Constantinople doesn't take Egypt, a Persian power is not unlikely to eye it (Egypt is wealthy) - and that could go interesting ways.
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Hungary had a lot of interference in its domestic affairs by both the byzantines and the germans. They were indeed not clashing directly but they supported various claimants for the throne of Hungary.
For example take Salamon who gained the throne with the support of german troops in 1063 after which he married the sister of the HRE emperor Henrik IV. Later he lost the throne to his cousin Géza who made an alliance with the byzantines and received a crown from them that is even today the lower part of the hungarian Crown.
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The Russians won't be guided by peter the great towards the west rather toward the Byzantines
Sharing more culture wars would happens as the crimean power disintegrates and the Byzantines go north and Russians south I see the war ending with the Byzantines taking crimea and the surrounding region it while the Russians get the lion share of ukraine
So I guess in this timeline the Russians modernize earlier under Byzantine influence I wonder if Rusia and the Byzantines would be seen as that eastern treath
In terms of Iran if the dynasty there is like the safavid then the Byzantines would have an upper hand assuming america and all is discovered and the industrialization arrives the Byzantines would be a lot better than the ottomans .
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According to this article written from an Orthodox perspective, Martin Luther used the example of the Greek Orthodox church to bolster his arguments. Luther also defended the Orthodox church against the charge that they abandoned Christianity. https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2017/10/03/lutherans-greek-church/