What American Civil War Campaign Has the Greatest "AH Potential"?

What American Civil War Campaign Has the Greatest "AH Potential"?

  • First Bull Run/Manassas

    Votes: 13 14.8%
  • Fort Henry and Fort Donelson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Shiloh

    Votes: 12 13.6%
  • Peninsular Campaign

    Votes: 10 11.4%
  • Second Bull Run/Manassas

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Antietem/Sharpsburg

    Votes: 22 25.0%
  • Perryville

    Votes: 6 6.8%
  • Fredericksburg

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Stones River/Murfreesboro

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Chancellorsville

    Votes: 6 6.8%
  • Vicksburg

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Gettysburg

    Votes: 8 9.1%
  • Chickamauga and Chattanooga

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • Overland Campaign

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Early’s Washington Raid/Shenandoah Campaign

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Atlanta

    Votes: 2 2.3%
  • Petersburg

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Franklin-Nashville

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Naval War

    Votes: 2 2.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 1 1.1%

  • Total voters
    88
Hood's actions gave him no choice. Having spotted the Union cavalry force (which, in Hood's defense, was real despite the post-war claims of Johnston and Mackall), Hood immediately began retreating. He should have either detached a force to deal with the threat or at least communicated with Johnston to ask what to do. Instead, he pulled back so far that by the time Johnston could have done anything about it, the chance to attack was gone.

So, Johnston couldn't/didn't keep track until Hood had thrown this away?

That's . . . kind of disappointing. I suppose we can blame the Confederate habit of undersized staffs, but its still disappointing.

And this is looking at it as favorably as I can imagine, and ignoring the "Okay, we can't attack, we have to retreat" part.

Quite true. I am generally a defender of Johnston against Davis/Bragg/Hood, but Johnston certainly didn't help his cause by the illogical use of numbers in his memoirs.
Or in arguing how he was fantastically successful to his supporters like Senator Hill and telling Davis . . . well, I posted it earlier in the thread. Sufficient to say, Johnston saying different things at different times happened before his memoirs were written.

Anaxagoras: The context of "Bragg has been down here, and Davis is sending a telegram asking for specific information now" is "Davis wants more than he has available now".

If Bragg has already been told what he planned (assuming for discussion's sake Johnston had planned anything), why would Davis be asking for specific information if he already has it? Just to waste paper? :rolleyes:
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
If Bragg has already been told what he planned (assuming for discussion's sake Johnston had planned anything), why would Davis be asking for specific information if he already has it? Just to waste paper? :rolleyes:

Because Davis didn't have it. Bragg purposefully held it back from Davis because Bragg wanted Johnston out. Johnston, however, thought that Davis had it. That's what I think, anyway.
 
Because Davis didn't have it. Bragg purposefully held it back from Davis because Bragg wanted Johnston out. Johnston, however, thought that Davis had it. That's what I think, anyway.

Well, let me reword my question.

Davis is requesting Johnston send him specific information.

Which of these is the most reasonable conclusion?

1) He needs/wants more specific information than he already has.

2) He already knows Johnston's plans.

3) This was sent to Johnston by mistake, and he meant to send it to some other general.

4) THE CAKE IS A LIE!


#4 added because otherwise I'll have some very unfunny thoughts about the whole business, and that would not contribute to a good discussion.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Well, let me reword my question.

Davis is requesting Johnston send him specific information.

Which of these is the most reasonable conclusion?

1) He needs/wants more specific information than he already has.

2) He already knows Johnston's plans.

3) This was sent to Johnston by mistake, and he meant to send it to some other general.

4) THE CAKE IS A LIE!


#4 added because otherwise I'll have some very unfunny thoughts about the whole business, and that would not contribute to a good discussion.

The answer is #4, obviously.

But seriously, perhaps the answer is #1 but Johnston does not realize that it's #1. He may think that Bragg has already told Davis about his intention to attack Sherman, so he would see the telegram as just another annoying communication from the President no different than many of the others he has received over the course of the campaign. It's conceivably that Bragg choose not to tell the President about Johnston's plans, instead saying that he had no plan, because of his own bitterness towards Johnston and his hopes that "his man" Hood would get the command (note how he also undermined his enemy Hardee during this time, to ensure Davis didn't consider him as Johnston's replacement).

If this is true (and it's all speculation, of course), Johnston is handed the telegram, is annoyed because he assumes Bragg already told Davis everything Davis needed to know, and barks off a slapdash response before getting back to work, never realizing just how important the telegram actually was.

Bragg said that he visited Johnston's headquarters twice and remained there for hours on each occasion. If Johnston was not telling Bragg of his plans, then what on earth were they talking about during all that time? Obviously, Johnston knew the information he was giving to Bragg would be communicated to the President, because that was the whole reason Bragg was there in the first place. Not being a good judge of character, it simply never occurred to Johnston that Bragg would stab him in the back so coldly, especially after everything Johnston had done for Bragg in 1862-63.
 
Bragg said that he visited Johnston's headquarters twice and remained there for hours on each occasion. If Johnston was not telling Bragg of his plans, then what on earth were they talking about during all that time? Obviously, Johnston knew the information he was giving to Bragg would be communicated to the President, because that was the whole reason Bragg was there in the first place. Not being a good judge of character, it simply never occurred to Johnston that Bragg would stab him in the back so coldly, especially after everything Johnston had done for Bragg in 1862-63.

I would suspect it depended on how he saw Bragg - as someone who would listen to him claiming to have done splendidly against Sherman, or as one of Davis's lackeys.

What's interesting on the issue of backstabbing and what Johnston thought about Bragg - Bragg sent Davis a letter on the 15th, not a telegram. Now, I'm not sure Johnston knew that, but its interesting.

But what gets me about the telegram:

" My plan of operations must, therefore, depend on that of the enemy. It is mainly to watch for an opportunity to fight to advantage."

Let's say Johnston for whatever reason believed Davis knew the specifics.

If he really and truly has a plan to attack in the near future, why is he telling Davis that his plan is "mainly to watch for an opportunity" and that his plan of operations "must depend on that of the enemy"?

It's just . . .

Well, I have to wonder if Johnston had any idea how that would be read. Even if he was in a snappy mood, saying this gives an impression of passivity and reaction, deserved or otherwise, that cannot help his situation.


 

Anaxagoras

Banned
I would suspect it depended on how he saw Bragg - as someone who would listen to him claiming to have done splendidly against Sherman, or as one of Davis's lackeys.

Johnston probably thought Bragg was his friend. After all, when more than half the officers in the Army of Tennessee were screaming for Bragg's head between the fall of 1862 and the spring of 1863, even after Davis and Seddon gave Johnston permission to take command of the AoT if he thought it necessary, Johnston consistently supported Bragg and told Davis to keep him in command. The last thing he expected Bragg to do in 1864 was to stab him in the back.

Bragg sent Davis a letter on the 15th, not a telegram.

He sent two telegrams and a letter. The telegrams are the important thing, though, as the letter would not have had time to reach Richmond by the time Johnston was removed from command.

Well, I have to wonder if Johnston had any idea how that would be read. Even if he was in a snappy mood, saying this gives an impression of passivity and reaction, deserved or otherwise, that cannot help his situation.

I agree 100%. There is no denying that Johnston was being incredibly naive and committing a serious error in judgment. But the question that interests me is whether or not Johnston would have abandoned Atlanta without a fight. Looking from the Davis/Bragg/Hood perspective, there is reason to think that he would have. But I tend to think that Johnston would have fought hard for the city and would have done a better job than Hood managed to do.
 
Johnston probably thought Bragg was his friend. After all, when more than half the officers in the Army of Tennessee were screaming for Bragg's head between the fall of 1862 and the spring of 1863, even after Davis and Seddon gave Johnston permission to take command of the AoT if he thought it necessary, Johnston consistently supported Bragg and told Davis to keep him in command. The last thing he expected Bragg to do in 1864 was to stab him in the back.

Yes, because criticizing Johnston is stabbing him in the back - but we went over that.


He sent two telegrams and a letter. The telegrams are the important thing, though, as the letter would not have had time to reach Richmond by the time Johnston was removed from command.
When are the telegrams?

I agree 100%. There is no denying that Johnston was being incredibly naive and committing a serious error in judgment. But the question that interests me is whether or not Johnston would have abandoned Atlanta without a fight. Looking from the Davis/Bragg/Hood perspective, there is reason to think that he would have. But I tend to think that Johnston would have fought hard for the city and would have done a better job than Hood managed to do.
Why? What about his career suggests Johnston would have "fought hard" when he's studiously avoided "fighting hard" all campaign?

I would bet on Johnston making at most one battle, failing (same as anyone else probably would have), and regarding "saving his army" as infinitely more important than saving Atlanta.

In quotes as Hood managed to avoid eliminating the AoT despite his best efforts to fight far more aggressively than any period of Johnston's career suggests he would have.

Of course, we can't be certain - but whether one sympathizes with him in the struggle with Richmond or not, Richmond does have no reason to trust that he's going to fight harder than he's fought in previous campaigns or this one.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
When are the telegrams?

Reaching for my copies of Connelly and Castel...

Let's see, we have one at one o'clock on July 13, just after he arrived, in which Bragg says that "indications seem to favor an entire evacuation of this place". This is a rather odd thing to say, since he had only just stepped off the train and had not even spoken to Johnston or anyone else yet.

Then we have another sent sometime after midnight (marked 1 pm, but since he refers to Union troops crossing the Chattahoochee "this evening", Castel concludes that this was a typo and the message was actually sent at 1 am). Bragg says that he spent most of the day with Johnston, but makes little reference at all to what the two men talked about. He only says that he finds "but little encouraging".

The next morning, Davis sends Bragg a telegram, which reads "The selection of a place must depend upon military considerations so mainly that I can only say if C. is thus indicated adopt advice and execute as proposed." Whatever the hell this means is anyone's guess. Clearly, Bragg and Davis had worked out a rudimentary code before Bragg left Richmond. Does "place" refer to Johnston's successor? If so, is "C" Hood or Hardee? Who knows? And what is it that Bragg is supposed to "adopt and execute"?

The next day (July 15), Bragg sends Davis three telegrams, the summation of which is essentially the same as the letter he wrote to Davis on that same day. Interestingly, when he mailed the letter to Davis, he included a letter written by Hood that damned Johnston's strategy and falsely claimed that he (Hood) had urged Johnston to give battle far to the north of "our present position". It also damned Hardee by saying that he fully supported Johnston's defensive strategy.

So, we have five telegrams and a letter from Bragg to Davis. I incorrectly recalled the three telegrams on July 15 as one telegram, and I forgot the one sent when Bragg first arrived in the city.

A major sticking point in all this is that Bragg claims he spent several hours at Johnston's headquarters on two different days, but he never tells Davis what Johnston said to him during all that time.
 
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