What İf Gaius Julius Caesar Never Born ?

[Sadr-ı Azam]

I think ;
Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus may be become Consul/Dictator of Roman Republic for life.
Roman Nobility more powerful in this ATL than OTL.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus may be become Consul/Dictator of Roman Republic for life.

Probably not. Even if the absence of Caesar does not butterfly away Pompey's rise to promience, Cato, Cicero and the rest of the Optimites did not trust Pompey any more than they trusted Caesar IOTL. It was only the threat of Caesar's power grab that caused Pompey to be brought forward as the defender of the Senate.

 

[Sadr-ı Azam]

Anaxagoras;
"Probably not. Even if the absence of Caesar does not butterfly away Pompey's rise to promience Cato, Cicero and the rest of the Optimites did not trust Pompey any more than they trusted Caesar IOTL. It was only the threat of Caesar's power grab that caused Pompey to be brought forward as the defender of the Senate."


"Pompey was wildly popular. On December 31, 71 BC, he was given a triumph for his victories in Hispania. To his admirers he was the most brilliant general of the age, evidently favoured by the gods and a possible champion of the people's rights. He had successfully faced down Sulla and his senate; he or his influence might restore the traditional plebian rights and privileges lost under Sulla's dictatorship. So Pompey was allowed to bypass another ancient Roman tradition; at only 35 years of age and while not even a senator, he was elected Consul by an overwhelming majority vote, and served in 70 BC with Crassus as partner. Pompey's leap from mere eques to Consul was not simply unprecedented; his tactics offended the traditionalist nobility whose values he claimed to share and defend. He had left them no option but to allow his consulship and they probably never forgave him."
(from Wikipedia)

Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus already popular before the rise of Gaius Julius Caesar.

 

[RyuDrago]

I guess probably the old republican system continued to live... But this could bring to a scleratization of the administration. Essentially, the principal cause of the crisis of the late Republic was the inadequacy of the city-state system to govern a intercontinental empire...

Also, no Caesar probably could means Pompey vs Crassus.

 

[Anaxagoras]

(from Wikipedia)

Oh, and if it's on Wikipedia, it must be true, huh? Since you're new, I'll just let you know that block quotes from Wikipedia are strongly discouraged on this forum.

The very fact of Pompey's popularity with the people made him appear dangerous to the Optimites in the Senate. With the example of Marius and Sulla clear in their minds, the Optimites would have made Pompey a marked man. IOTL, the Optimites were never sure whether Caesar or Pompey was the more dangerous man. Absent Caesar, this would not have been a problem.

 

[Sadr-ı Azam]

Maybe Senate and Pompeius power sharing for good managing of Roman Republic .
Also late Republic needed reforms.
Agreed with RyuDrago, Republican System of Roman Government continued to live.
Absent of Caesar,Will be created First Triumvirate ?

 

[Michael Douglas]

"Pompey was wildly popular. On December 31, 71 BC, he was given a triumph for his victories in Hispania. To his admirers he was the most brilliant general of the age, evidently favoured by the gods and a possible champion of the people's rights. He had successfully faced down Sulla and his senate; he or his influence might restore the traditional plebian rights and privileges lost under Sulla's dictatorship. So Pompey was allowed to bypass another ancient Roman tradition; at only 35 years of age and while not even a senator, he was elected Consul by an overwhelming majority vote, and served in 70 BC with Crassus as partner. Pompey's leap from mere eques to Consul was not simply unprecedented; his tactics offended the traditionalist nobility whose values he claimed to share and defend. He had left them no option but to allow his consulship and they probably never forgave him."

I think he had some help from Caesar when it came to overthrowing Sulla, although I can't find any evidence of this.

More interestingly, Sulla might never have come to power. That other guy (forget his name) might have won the civil war if Julius Caesar's father had survived. What if we change this to Julius Caesar's father survives, Julius Caesar dies in the civil war between Sulla and the guy whose name I can't remember before he can inherit?

The titles Kaiser, Czar and Tsar would never have existed... they where based on local translations of the title Caesar, established after his death as a honorific.

 

[Orko]

LOL when I read the thread title I accidently read it as "WI Giant julius caesar never born?"



*gets idea for an ASB DBWI thread*

 

[Typo]

I guess probably the old republican system continued to live... But this could bring to a scleratization of the administration. Essentially, the principal cause of the crisis of the late Republic was the inadequacy of the city-state system to govern a intercontinental empire...

Also, no Caesar probably could means Pompey vs Crassus.

The Republican system was doomed with Marius and Sulla, Caesar or no Caesar some other guy is gonna march on rome at some point

 

[Sadr-ı Azam]

Absent of Caesar Affects

Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus or a powerful Roman General march on Rome and become Dictator.

Dictatorship of Roman Republic not extraordinary institution in Roman History.

When Dictator died , No Octavius or Marcus Antonius and no civil war.

I think Imperator positon never will be founded at Absent of Caesar.

Roman Republic continued with Consuls or Dictators.

Gaius Julius Caesar and his Legacy absolute monarch figure in Roman History .

If Gaius Julius Caesar never born no one existed against Roman Republic regime.

 

[Awilla the Hun]

It all depends on whether you believe in "Great Men" of history, or of complex underlying causes causing these "Great Men" to choose their ideas and gain their attributes and skills anyway. If it's the latter, then a militarily skilled Caesar counterpart could emerge anyway, wage war, and (at least try to) overthrow the Republic in a massive civil war.

 

[Rex Romanum]

Absent of Caesar Affects

Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus or a powerful Roman General march on Rome and become Dictator.

Dictatorship of Roman Republic not extraordinary institution in Roman History.

When Dictator died , No Octavius or Marcus Antonius and no civil war.

I think Imperator positon never will be founded at Absent of Caesar.

Roman Republic continued with Consuls or Dictators.

Gaius Julius Caesar and his Legacy absolute monarch figure in Roman History .

If Gaius Julius Caesar never born no one existed against Roman Republic regime.

Well, not really. Agreed with Typo here: at the time of Pompey the Republic was already doomed.
For anyone who think that the Republican Rome could survive for any longer, there are two main problems: corruption and control of the army. Common citizens need one strong man to protect them from the corrupt Senators, while the legions need one strong man to protect them from civil wars that were fought by quarelling generals.
The one-man-get-all-power situation is inevitable, as one man would always emerge victorious in the civil wars, with or without Caesar.
And anyway, don't forget that Octavian never actually abolished the Republic, he just kept all of the powers for himself.

 

[Arafeel]

I think he had some help from Caesar when it came to overthrowing Sulla, although I can't find any evidence of this.

More interestingly, Sulla might never have come to power. That other guy (forget his name) might have won the civil war if Julius Caesar's father had survived. What if we change this to Julius Caesar's father survives, Julius Caesar dies in the civil war between Sulla and the guy whose name I can't remember before he can inherit?

The titles Kaiser, Czar and Tsar would never have existed... they where based on local translations of the title Caesar, established after his death as a honorific.

Firstly Sulla was not overthrown, he retired and died peacefully the nekst year.

Secondly: Gaius Julius Caesar sr was not as we know of a good general or politician, (if the brother in law of Gaius Marius cant become consul...) he also died after the conflict between Marius and Sulla starter. (so did Marius actually). This leaves Cinna and Carbo as the leaders of the Marian party facing Sulla.
When Sulla lands Caesa was in his teens and would not be of age to enter the senate until his 30th birthday. Ergo neither him nor his familiy would have any impact on that conflict.

 

[Arafeel]

Well, not really. Agreed with Typo here: at the time of Pompey the Republic was already doomed.
For anyone who think that the Republican Rome could survive for any longer, there are two main problems: corruption and control of the army. Common citizens need one strong man to protect them from the corrupt Senators, while the legions need one strong man to protect them from civil wars that were fought by quarelling generals.
The one-man-get-all-power situation is inevitable, as one man would always emerge victorious in the civil wars, with or without Caesar.
And anyway, don't forget that Octavian never actually abolished the Republic, he just kept all of the powers for himself.

I disagree, the republic has fare from doomed. The lower classes did actually have 10 men who fought for them, the Tribunes of the Plebes. The idea that the Senate was corrupt has no real base, yes there were some bade ones but we are talking about a body of over 300 men. Sullas reforms would, had not Pompey and Crassus dismateld it allowed for the continuation of the republic . Some pressing issues need to be resolved, and that was mainly land reform. There is not any any real need for there to be any more civil wars either. Both Pompey, Crassus and Caesar wear populist and used political office for their own ends rather than the republic. Something the Sulla tried to hinder.

 

[RyuDrago]

Otherwise, no Caesar would means different Octavian and Marc Antony for sure (but still existing anyway); also, i'm wondering if Egypt will be able to remain indipendent, with Cleopatra early out of power after the civil war and maybe also killed. Finally, no Gallia and later Britannia in the Republic fold.

 

[Rex Romanum]

I disagree, the republic has fare from doomed. The lower classes did actually have 10 men who fought for them, the Tribunes of the Plebes. The idea that the Senate was corrupt has no real base, yes there were some bade ones but we are talking about a body of over 300 men. Sullas reforms would, had not Pompey and Crassus dismateld it allowed for the continuation of the republic . Some pressing issues need to be resolved, and that was mainly land reform. There is not any any real need for there to be any more civil wars either. Both Pompey, Crassus and Caesar wear populist and used political office for their own ends rather than the republic. Something the Sulla tried to hinder.

The biggest problem with Sulla's constitution was that it didn't erase the conflict between populares/plebeians and optimates/patricians. And remember, Sulla's reforms were only meant to strengthened the aristocracy (Senate) and greatly weakened the Tribunes, which means the populares won't really like it. It was only a matter of time until some generals did the same things that Pompey and Crassus have done in OTL: forge an agreement with the populares to dismantle Sulla's constitution, and things will be reverted again.
I'd like to pointed out, anyway, that it was Sulla himself who exposed the most fatal weakness in Rome's Republican constitution: it was the army, not the Senate nor the constitution itself, which dictated the fortunes of the state.

 

[Sadr-ı Azam]

Suggestions to solve the problems of the Late Roman Republic

Create a First Triumvirate for constitutional reforms.(İdeal solution without monarch like)
May be between
Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Optimates faction)
Marcus Porcius Cato(Novi homines faction)
Marcus Licinius Crassus(Populares faction)

One Consulship(for five years term,for easy administration,short-term solution)

Elected Dictator(not for a life,may be ten years,long-term solution )

I think Octavian like princeps will be de facto destoreyed the Roman Republic.Octavian is un crowned king in Roman History.İn absent of Caesar means no Augustus Caesar.

 

[nlspeed]

Could you please type normally? Reading your posts is... Not good for my mental condition.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

Have to agree with Rex Romanorum; the Republic's problems are all still present, and for all the fame that Caesar's march on Rome gets, Sulla had already established the precedent for using military force on the city to impose dictatorship. It's hard to keep any Republic functional when "march on the capital and impose my will" is a viable option for any up-and-coming politician.

 

[Typo]

I disagree, the republic has fare from doomed. The lower classes did actually have 10 men who fought for them, the Tribunes of the Plebes. The idea that the Senate was corrupt has no real base, yes there were some bade ones but we are talking about a body of over 300 men. Sullas reforms would, had not Pompey and Crassus dismateld it allowed for the continuation of the republic . Some pressing issues need to be resolved, and that was mainly land reform. There is not any any real need for there to be any more civil wars either. Both Pompey, Crassus and Caesar wear populist and used political office for their own ends rather than the republic. Something the Sulla tried to hinder.

The problem is that ultimately the population basis of Yeomen farmers needed to sustain the Republic was more or less destroyed. The Tribune of the Plebes failed horribly at playing the politics of Rome to fix the problem for the lower classes, and this was not just the Gracchus who tried. Sulla doesn't help here considering the fact he actually stripped the power from the Pleb Tribunes, plus he established the practice of simply using the army to override politics.