Westland Whirlwinds to Malaya, 1941

P-39 had the same problem, if too much time was spent in the taxiways.
Once in the air, it gets cold fast as you get up a few thousand feet.
Don't forget why the IJA pilots had rabbit fur line flight suits, it wasn't because they were cold on the ground
Exactly so. Changes to the Pilot Notes and adherence to the same dealt with ground overheating and the Peregrine worked fine.

The problem I see with the OP is that, whilst Whirlwind production had no further orders, the RAF were using Whirlwinds in continuous service for as long as they had airframes and spares. They were not obsolete spare aeroplanes in 1941. they were front line cutting edge aeroplanes.

To get Whirlwind quality aeroplanes into the Far East one has to seek a POD that takes a different bet on the future and gambles that releasing resources to the Far East will pay off.
 

Jack1971

Banned
To get Whirlwind quality aeroplanes into the Far East one has to seek a POD that takes a different bet on the future and gambles that releasing resources to the Far East will pay off.
The same gamble that led Britain to release its latest battleship and carrier, one of its only two 30 knot capital ships, 140,000 men, 250 aircraft, some 10,000 vehicles, etc, etc.

I’ve intentionally omitted a detailed POD as I don’t see the Whirlwind move as significant, no more than the four squadrons of similarly aged Blenheims sent IOTL. Also, detailed POD omitted as many threads get bogged down in longwinded back and forth, never able to get past the POD, usually ensnared by two or three people, going into levels of details no else cares about. If you want a detailed POD, then I’m afraid you’re going to be disappointed.

Here’s our POD, courtesy of Draconis.
...someone in the RAF command gets a from letter a fellow officer complaining about how the wood and fabric aircraft components are rotting out in the Tropical climate. "I've got it" he thinks. "We'll ship these all metal Westlandd kites out to Singapore." "That'll shut them up."
 
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I think that OTL the British felt that the forces in Malaya although not great would be enough to slow/stop the Japanese (if they attacked) for long enough for reinforcements to arrive. So the forces deployed where not really a gamble but more a calculated risk. With hindsight more and better trained and equipped forces where needed, although this was not obvious in the summer/autumn of 1941.

Now would the Whirlwinds make a big enough difference to slow the Japanese down so the original plan for reinforcements to arrive in good order and deploy is realised. I think it would take the British rolling several six's in a row for this to happen (but this is no more than the Germans rolled in the BoF or OTL the Japanese rolled in Malaya).
 

Jack1971

Banned
INow would the Whirlwinds make a big enough difference to slow the Japanese down so the original plan for reinforcements to arrive in good order and deploy is realised. I think it would take the British rolling several six's in a row for this to happen (but this is no more than the Germans rolled in the BoF or OTL the Japanese rolled in Malaya).
I think the three Whirlwind squadrons would do well fighting alongside the four Blenheim units. Compared to the Buffalo (cruise speed 160 mph), the faster Blenheim (cruise 198 mph) is better matched to the fast Whirlwind. And for strike work, the Whirlwind (2x250 lb) has half the bomb load of the Blenheim (4x250 lb) so the potential for tactical bombing and CAS just increased by a large factor.

With the Whirlwinds on Station, what role do we see for the Buffalo? It has nearly double the range on internal fuel than the Whirlwind, so distant CAP or enhanced fleet support are possibilities. Maybe high altitude CAP waiting for intercept vectors, so the Buffaloes can dive on their targets.

Certainly having this trio on your quarter would give reassurance to any Blenheim crew.

3_Westland_Whirlwinds_of_263_Sqn_Exeter(Devon)%2C_flying_in_stepped_line-astern_formation_over_West_Country.jpg


After initial success, I’d like to think the government and RAF would consider raising and sending two additional Whirlwind squadrons from those aircraft presumably in storage (116 produced, 52 in Malaya, assuming a few lost in Britain should leave a couple of dozen in crates somewhere).
 
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I think the three Whirlwind squadrons would do well fighting alongside the four Blenheim units. Compared to the Buffalo (cruise speed 160 mph), the faster Blenheim (cruise 198 mph) is better matched to the fast Whirlwind. And for strike work, the Whirlwind (2x250 lb) has half the bomb load of the Blenheim (4x250 lb) so the potential for tactical bombing and CAS just increased by a large factor.

With the Whirlwinds on Station, what role do we see for the Buffalo? It has nearly double the range on internal fuel than the Whirlwind, so distant CAP or enhanced fleet support are possibilities. Maybe high altitude CAP waiting for intercept vectors, so the Buffaloes can dive on their targets.

Certainly having this trio on your quarter would give reassurance to any Blenheim crew.

3_Westland_Whirlwinds_of_263_Sqn_Exeter(Devon)%2C_flying_in_stepped_line-astern_formation_over_West_Country.jpg


After initial success, I’d like to think the government and RAF would consider raising and sending two additional Whirlwind squadrons from those aircraft presumably in storage (116 produced, 52 in Malaya, assuming a few lost in Britain should leave a couple of dozen in crates somewhere).

I think the Whirlwinds in storage would be shipped out to allow the three Whirlwind squadrons additional aircraft to make good loses.

I could see the Buffaloes being used in conjunction with the Whirlwinds in a similar manner to Spitfires and Hurricanes in the BoB. The Whirlwinds boom and zoom the Zeroes and keep them generally occupied allowing the Buffaloes to attack the Japanese bombers and Oscars unmolested.

Alternatively Acould the Buffaloes carry enough bombs to be a useful long range intruder/fighter bomber? I could see a significant pay off for interdiction bombing far to the rear of the Japanese front line especially with the Zeros occupied with the Whirlwinds.
 
Alternatively Acould the Buffaloes carry enough bombs to be a useful long range intruder/fighter bomber? I could see a significant pay off for interdiction bombing far to the rear of the Japanese front line especially with the Zeros occupied with the Whirlwinds.

Brewster F2A-2 had 242 US gallons of fuel, the -1 160 gallons, vs the 160 US gallon capacity of the Whirlwind. -3 had even more fuel, ammo and armor plate, and the worst performance, but had 100 pound bomb rack on each wing.

-1 had slightly better climb and had great maneuverability, while the -3 was a slug in all aspects except for range
 

Deleted member 94680


I know it's slightly off thread, but goddamn, that's a good looking airframe.

Anyway, if Whirlwinds were to be used in Malaya, I wouldn't imagine it to be used in boom and zoom manoeuvres. From what I've gleaned in articles, it seems staying low is better to suited to the Whirlwind's performance - if they did manage to climb to the height to carry out a boom and zoom ambush, they'd have to start there and I can't imagine they would be able to get back up after the first bounce.

As the performance of the Peregrine engines fell off at altitude, the Whirlwind was most often used in ground-attack missions over France, attacking German airfields, marshalling yards, and railway traffic. The Whirlwind was used to particularly good effect as a gun platform for destroying locomotives. Some pilots were credited with several trains damaged or destroyed in a single mission. The aircraft was also successful in hunting and destroying German E-boats which operated in the English Channel. At lower altitudes, it could hold its own against the Bf 109. Though the Peregrine was a much-maligned powerplant, it was more reliable than the troublesome Napier Sabre engine used in the Hawker Typhoon, the Whirlwind's successor. The twin engines meant that seriously damaged aircraft were able to return with one engine knocked out. The placement of the wings and engines ahead of the cockpit allowed the aircraft to absorb a great deal of damage, while the cockpit area remained largely intact. The rugged frame of the Whirlwind gave pilots greater protection than contemporary aircraft during crash landings and ground accidents. According to P. J. R. Moyes:

The basic feature of the Whirlwind was its concentration of firepower: its four closely-grouped heavy cannon in the nose had a rate of fire of 600 lb./minute – which, until the introduction of the Beaufighter, placed it ahead of any fighter in the world. Hand in hand with this dense firepower went a first-rate speed and climb performance, excellent manoeuvrability, and a fighting view hitherto unsurpassed. The Whirlwind was, in its day, faster than the Spitfire down low and, with lighter lateral control, was considered to be one of the nicest "twins" ever built… From the flying viewpoint, the Whirlwind was considered magnificent.

Wiki page on Westland Whirlwind section Operational History. (emphasis my own)

But reading that above paragraph again, maybe they could - even in a dogfight. Seems there's every chance the Whirlwind could be used as a decent fighter-bomber/strike aircraft that could look after itself if jump by opposition fighters?
 

Jack1971

Banned
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And there was plenty of war resources sent to your "quiet backwater". Including 140,000 soldiers (and their weapons and kit), including a first rate Australian division, 250 aircraft, 1,000 artillery and AT guns. Add to this the RN sending its latest battleship, along with one of its two remaining 30 knot capable capital ships, and its latest AFD fleet carrier. Given all these war resources being sent out to Malaya during peaceful 1941, why is it considered so inconceivable that Britain might have also sent 52 underemployed fighters?

Agreed a lot of equipment was sent. But was enough shipping available? According to RACING THE SUNRISE the US was having trouble getting equipment to Wake, Midway and other islands due to lack of available shipping...
 
Oh something had to be sent to the Soviets, but in 1941 it was largely symbolic where the actual amount was largely unimportant.

That was certainly the line adopted by the Soviets later, but over half of the tanks and fighters defending Moscow in the winter of 1941-2 were British-supplied. This is a case where 50 tanks arriving in 1941 are more important than 500 tanks arriving in 1944.
 

hipper

Banned
That was certainly the line adopted by the Soviets later, but over half of the tanks and fighters defending Moscow in the winter of 1941-2 were British-supplied. This is a case where 50 tanks arriving in 1941 are more important than 500 tanks arriving in 1944.

The Precise number of British tanks and fighters defending Moscow is a matter for some debate, (I was arguing this on Saturday with a friend) I think the most we can say is that it was a significant number. certainly 50 Valentines in 1941 were better than 500 Sherman’s in 1944
 

Jack1971

Banned
I think the Whirlwinds in storage would be shipped out to allow the three Whirlwind squadrons additional aircraft to make good loses.
I agree, but the replacements probably wouldn't arrive before end of Feb. Though IIRC, HMS Indomitable flew off RAF Hurricanes to Singapore in Jan/Feb 1941, so maybe Whirlwinds would be possible.
I could see the Buffaloes being used in conjunction with the Whirlwinds in a similar manner to Spitfires and Hurricanes in the BoB. The Whirlwinds boom and zoom the Zeroes and keep them generally occupied allowing the Buffaloes to attack the Japanese bombers and Oscars unmolested.
I think this only works if there's radar directed interception, and fleets of strategic bombers to intercept. But I do like the idea of coordinated RAF efforts. For example, Vilderbeasts (with HA Whirlwind cover) conduct recon to find targets, followed by Blenheims and Whirlwinds attacking IJA landing ships and troops with Buffaloes providing air cover, once the Whirlwinds drop their 250 lb, bombs they use their 3,000 feet-per-minute rate of climb (Buffalo was 2,400 fpm) to quickly enter the fighter combat.
 
Interesting reading I will most definitely be watching this as my dad was on Repulse when she went down. Thankfully he lived but after spending time as a POW was a broken manin most ways very scary looking at his hands what they did to the soliders sailors airman and civilians is hard to imagine. No one in our family had any thing Japanese until dad passed away. Even then it was a rare thing.
 

Jack1971

Banned
Interesting reading I will most definitely be watching this as my dad was on Repulse when she went down. Thankfully he lived but after spending time as a POW was a broken manin most ways very scary looking at his hands what they did to the soliders sailors airman and civilians is hard to imagine. No one in our family had any thing Japanese until dad passed away. Even then it was a rare thing.
I was in South Korea in January, and it was rare to see anything Japanese.
 
I was in South Korea in January, and it was rare to see anything Japanese.

I lived on Guam in the early and mid-70's. Trust me when I tell you the older generations neither forgot or forgave the Japanese for the brutal occupation. They were rude at best to Japanese tourists and outright hostile at times.

During this time my family visited the Philippines, Thailand, Hong Kong and Taiwan. It was pretty much the same in all places, an extreme dislike of the Japanese especially among those old enough to be around during their occupations...
 
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