Westland Whirlwinds to Malaya, 1941

This has been an interesting discussion about the merits and failings of the Westlant Whirland. And no doubt if the RAF in Malaysia had a number of them on hand after the start of the Pacific War they would have put them to good use. Especially after the surviving pilots had developed the proper tactics to use against Zeros and Oscars.

But there is the larger question that this thread brings up. How to get anything helpful sent to Malaysia in 1941 when there are more pressing priorities? If somebody had decided to rush the Whirlwinds being kept in Scotland into service there were several other active warzones in 1941 that would have had priority over the quiet peaceful backwater of 1941 Malaysia.

So, how to convince the powers-that-be to direct any modern airplanes of any type to Malaysia before December 1941?

My go to answer is that following the occupation of FIC on 28th July by the Japanese (or even before suring the original invasion of Northern FIC the previous year) the British commonwealth in collusion with the Dutch places Malaya and other areas (Rabaul, Ambon, and Timor for example) under command of the Australians

Now over the years I have gleaned various bits of information - one of which is that a number of British Divisions were held back in the UK (Carl S quoted the following in a post a few months back) and with hindsight this was a mistake IMO

"from 'Britain's Greatest Defeat: Singapore 1942' by Alan Warren gives a deployment of British & Commonwealth Divisions worldwide,7 December 1941:

United Kingdom
29 divisions--6 Armoured Divs,21 Inf Divs,2 Dominion Inf Divs

Middle East
13 divisions--3 Armoured Divs,2 Inf Divs,6 Dominion Inf Divs,2 Indian Divs

Persia-Iraq
3 divisions--3 Indian Divs

Far East
3 divisions--1 Dominion Inf Div,2 Indian Divs

Of the 32 British divisions available at the time only 5 were overseas.

The reliance on Dominion and Indian divisions to carry the burden elsewhere stands out.

IIRC 10-12 of the infantry divisions in the UK were "Home" Div. Relatively static formations & under armed.

I think they had a training function as well as a anti invasion force. That leaves approx ten British inf, two Canadian Inf, & five armored if one of those is considered a training formation."


So my suggestion is to replace the 3 Australian Infantry Divisions of the 2nd Australian Imperial Force with British/Commonwealth Divisions from the UK and allow the 2nd AIF to form the nucleus of the Commonwealth defence of Malaya and DEI

Now none of this is really possible without a better situation for the allies in mid 1941 - so my suggestion is that some or all of the following PODs happen before Mid 41

Op Judgement is conducted by a multi carrier strike group sinking/crippling all of the Italian BBs using several dozen more torpedo carrying Aircraft than the 11 or so that were used OTL

Malta is more heavily reinforced by April 1941

W Force is not sent or delayed to Greece (NA and Australian Governments get wind of the plan and dig their feet in effectively vetoing the plan) and by the time the Germans attack at the beginning of April 1941 only the New Zealand Division has been sent and has only got as far as occupying Crete freeing up the 5th Greek Division (?) for service on the mainland

So none of the Main force Units make it to Greece before the German invasion and do not suffer heavy losses in men and equipment - the 26 Troop ships intended to land W force are instead used to evacuate as many Greek troops as possible back to Crete (where in my perfect little world they are partially re-equipped with Italian kit captured during Op Compass). This bodes ill for the planned Op Mercury in late May.

With the addition of the British 1st Armoured Brigade and the 6th Australian Division as well as logistic assets still in Egypt/Cyrenaica and the Axis forces in North Africa weakened by a greater interdiction effort from Malta, Rommel's Operation Sonnenblume takes place later with slightly less strength and is blunted in Cyrenaica and forced to retreat back to El Agheila

Now OTL the British Commonwealth forces lost in the Greek, Crete and Cyrenaica battles and subsequent attempted counter attacks about 1.5 Divisions worth of troops and several times that in Equipment (Trucks, Artillery, tanks etc), not to mention lots of ships lost or damaged attempting interdiction and then evacuation - and this all had to be made good before anything was going further east than Cairo

But in this TL losses are much lower and the losses to the Axis higher for a 'net positive' situation for the British Commonwealth and allied forces in the region

I feel that that would allow for the Australian Government to press for the release of its soldiers and to take command in Malaya and DEI

Now of course the Aussies had a number of Squadrons fighting in North Africa (I think they had lots of P40s at the time) and they would I expect take those with them as well as 'demand' more fighters from the UK and we might very well see Jack1971's 3 Squadrons of WWs forming a wing get dispatched to Malaya along with the Aussie units.

There - hows that?
 
Darn right. A lot of stuff that was sent to the USSR could have been better used in other places. But it wasn't known at the time. And since there was the fear of Stalin offering terms to Hitler (which he actually did but was rejected) it was impossible to gauge how much to send or not send to Russia.
If memory serves as soon as the Germans invaded Churchill sent them 200 Hurricanes, a wing of Hampdens and various obsolescent tanks found lying around depots, as well as sundry other supplies that could be found on a moments notice. Most of the supplies in the first shipments were of very little use against the Germans but would have been very useful against the Japanese. Half of those initial shipments would have done wonders in Malaya.
 
Darn right. A lot of stuff that was sent to the USSR could have been better used in other places. But it wasn't known at the time. And since there was the fear of Stalin offering terms to Hitler (which he actually did but was rejected) it was impossible to gauge how much to send or not send to Russia.

This. The stuff sent to the USSR in 1941 wasn't simply to help, it was a political statement by the UK and a way to forestall Stalin's near panic. Don't forget he started whining about a 2nd front even before 1941 was over.
 

Jack1971

Banned
My go to answer is that following the occupation of FIC on 28th July by the Japanese (or even before suring the original invasion of Northern FIC the previous year) the British commonwealth in collusion with the Dutch places Malaya and other areas (Rabaul, Ambon, and Timor for example) under command of the Australians

Now over the years I have gleaned various bits of information - one of which is that a number of British Divisions were held back in the UK (Carl S quoted the following in a post a few months back) and with hindsight this was a mistake IMO

"from 'Britain's Greatest Defeat: Singapore 1942' by Alan Warren gives a deployment of British & Commonwealth Divisions worldwide,7 December 1941:

United Kingdom
29 divisions--6 Armoured Divs,21 Inf Divs,2 Dominion Inf Divs

Middle East
13 divisions--3 Armoured Divs,2 Inf Divs,6 Dominion Inf Divs,2 Indian Divs

Persia-Iraq
3 divisions--3 Indian Divs

Far East
3 divisions--1 Dominion Inf Div,2 Indian Divs

Of the 32 British divisions available at the time only 5 were overseas.

The reliance on Dominion and Indian divisions to carry the burden elsewhere stands out.

IIRC 10-12 of the infantry divisions in the UK were "Home" Div. Relatively static formations & under armed.

I think they had a training function as well as a anti invasion force. That leaves approx ten British inf, two Canadian Inf, & five armored if one of those is considered a training formation."


So my suggestion is to replace the 3 Australian Infantry Divisions of the 2nd Australian Imperial Force with British/Commonwealth Divisions from the UK and allow the 2nd AIF to form the nucleus of the Commonwealth defence of Malaya and DEI

Now none of this is really possible without a better situation for the allies in mid 1941 - so my suggestion is that some or all of the following PODs happen before Mid 41

Op Judgement is conducted by a multi carrier strike group sinking/crippling all of the Italian BBs using several dozen more torpedo carrying Aircraft than the 11 or so that were used OTL

Malta is more heavily reinforced by April 1941

W Force is not sent or delayed to Greece (NA and Australian Governments get wind of the plan and dig their feet in effectively vetoing the plan) and by the time the Germans attack at the beginning of April 1941 only the New Zealand Division has been sent and has only got as far as occupying Crete freeing up the 5th Greek Division (?) for service on the mainland

So none of the Main force Units make it to Greece before the German invasion and do not suffer heavy losses in men and equipment - the 26 Troop ships intended to land W force are instead used to evacuate as many Greek troops as possible back to Crete (where in my perfect little world they are partially re-equipped with Italian kit captured during Op Compass). This bodes ill for the planned Op Mercury in late May.

With the addition of the British 1st Armoured Brigade and the 6th Australian Division as well as logistic assets still in Egypt/Cyrenaica and the Axis forces in North Africa weakened by a greater interdiction effort from Malta, Rommel's Operation Sonnenblume takes place later with slightly less strength and is blunted in Cyrenaica and forced to retreat back to El Agheila

Now OTL the British Commonwealth forces lost in the Greek, Crete and Cyrenaica battles and subsequent attempted counter attacks about 1.5 Divisions worth of troops and several times that in Equipment (Trucks, Artillery, tanks etc), not to mention lots of ships lost or damaged attempting interdiction and then evacuation - and this all had to be made good before anything was going further east than Cairo

But in this TL losses are much lower and the losses to the Axis higher for a 'net positive' situation for the British Commonwealth and allied forces in the region

I feel that that would allow for the Australian Government to press for the release of its soldiers and to take command in Malaya and DEI

Now of course the Aussies had a number of Squadrons fighting in North Africa (I think they had lots of P40s at the time) and they would I expect take those with them as well as 'demand' more fighters from the UK and we might very well see Jack1971's 3 Squadrons of WWs forming a wing get dispatched to Malaya along with the Aussie units.

There - hows that?
Jesus, that's overthinking it. Keep it simple....we're sending 52 aircraft, not moving the war.

Draconis gets the scale and scope of what's happening.
...someone in the RAF command gets a from letter a fellow officer complaining about how the wood and fabric aircraft components are rotting out in the Tropical climate. "I've got it" he thinks. "We'll ship these all metal Westland kites out to Singapore." "That'll shut them up."
 

Jack1971

Banned
If memory serves as soon as the Germans invaded Churchill sent them 200 Hurricanes, a wing of Hampdens and various obsolescent tanks found lying around depots, as well as sundry other supplies that could be found on a moments notice. Most of the supplies in the first shipments were of very little use against the Germans but would have been very useful against the Japanese. Half of those initial shipments would have done wonders in Malaya.
Sounds like a great thread. Put it together, I'd read it.
 
Jesus, that's overthinking it. Keep it simple....we're sending 52 aircraft, not moving the war.

True that. But I believe he wants to prevent the Fall of Singapore. A worthy concept but a little beyond your OP. Cryhavoc101 brings up an interesting point. Why didn't the Japanese forced occupation of French Indochina raise more of a red flag with the British?
 
I like it. Maybe someone in the RAF command gets a letter from a fellow officer complaining about how the wood and fabric aircraft components are rotting out in the Tropical climate. "I've got it" he thinks. "We'll ship these all-metal Westland kites out to Singapore." "That'll shut them up."
See, even better, nothing to it...
 
It did, but whenever there were enough resources to reinforce Malaya something went badly wrong. Rommel knocks the Western Desert Force back to Egypt, Greece and the Balkans, Iraqi revolt, invasion of the Soviet Union. There's also the little matter of the Battle of the Atlantic. It's a case of yes we need to reinforce but then there's this other matter that really needs seeing to first.

Now if Churchill doesn't get obsessed with Greece there's more troops to resist Rommel or better yet get to Tripoli before him. Without the British seemingly defeated in the desert and in Crete then there's no Iraqi revolt, and also no war with French Syria freeing troops and equipment for Malaya.
 

Jack1971

Banned
Cryhavoc101 brings up an interesting point. Why didn't the Japanese forced occupation of French Indochina raise more of a red flag with the British?
Newly elected, perhaps Churchill was worried about annoying FDR by aggressively moving against Japan at a time when Britain desperately needed America's aid. But I don't want to hijack my own thread, lol.
 

hipper

Banned
And there was plenty of war resources sent to your "quiet backwater". Including 140,000 soldiers (and their weapons and kit), including a first rate Australian division, 250 aircraft, 1,000 artillery and AT guns. Add to this the RN sending its latest battleship, along with one of its two remaining 30 knot capable capital ships, and its latest AFD fleet carrier. Given all these war resources being sent out to Malaya during peaceful 1941, why is it considered so inconceivable that Britain might have also sent 52 underemployed fighters?

But, as I said in the opening post, we'll carry on.

There was no plan to send indomitable to Malaya pre the Japanese attack
 

Jack1971

Banned
There was no plan to send indomitable to Malaya pre the Japanese attack
I thought this was decided in October 1941 when PoW and Repulse were sent, with the plan to send Indomitable once her working up period was completed in West Indies.

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-04CV-Indomitable.htm
October 1941
  • Nominated for deployment in Far East with Force Z.
  • Passage to West Indies to work-up for operational service.
It would be interesting to find Indomitable's formal orders of the time.

But it doesn't affect this thread really, as the deployment of KGV, Repulse, 140K troops, 250 aircraft, etc. demonstrates sufficient commitment on the part of Britain to make the addition of 52 Whirlwinds mostly non-noteworthy. Sending or not sending Indomitable does not tip the scale.
 
Last edited:
RR redid the Merlin I beacuse those belonged in the flaved 'ramphead Merlins' batch. Peregrine was a later design, later than Merlin III, even later than Merlin X. Whirlwinds running out of engines is a non-issue, they used same engines in 1940 as well as 1942 historically.
What is the source for 'those gasket failures'?

Merlin II were not ramp head, those Is were used in a few Battles, not the Merlin IIs in Hurricanes.

Overheating was noted, at that's almost always harmful to gaskets, leading to failure. That's one of the reason going from Merlin II to III, it was getting development. Only real development Peregrine had was to bang two of them together to the Vulture, that magnified overheating with additional bottom end problems.
 
I like it. Maybe someone in the RAF command gets a letter from a fellow officer complaining about how the wood and fabric aircraft components are rotting out in the Tropical climate. "I've got it" he thinks. "We'll ship these all-metal Westland kites out to Singapore." "That'll shut them up."

no, LL the Whirlwinds to the Soviet Union, and send some of the Valentine Tanks that would have been L-L'ed to Singapore instead
 
This. The stuff sent to the USSR in 1941 wasn't simply to help, it was a political statement by the UK and a way to forestall Stalin's near panic. Don't forget he started whining about a 2nd front even before 1941 was over.
Oh something had to be sent to the Soviets, but in 1941 it was largely symbolic where the actual amount was largely unimportant. Some could have been diverted to Malaya without effecting the Eastern Front at all. Yes Stalin would complain, but he'd have said he was hard done by even if the entire armed forces of the British Empire (including the various cadet corps and the Home Guard) had been sent to the USSR.
 
Whinging Aussies might be the only way to get anything east. They seemed to care more than anyone else in the area. That said there would probably have to be a quid pro quo. Eg. man a ship or extra an extra squadron in Europe. In the OTL just demanding stuff only got things there too late.
 

Jack1971

Banned
Only real development Peregrine had was to bang two of them together to the Vulture, that magnified overheating with additional bottom end problems.
I wonder if the Peregines were having head gasket failures not due to engine design, but due to poor cooling from the Whirlwind’s small leading edge radiators. That would not bode well in the sweltering heat of Malaya and India.

640px-Whirlwind_07-3.jpg
 
Last edited:
I wonder if the Peregines were having head gasket failures not due to engine design, but due to poor cooling from the Whirlwind’s small leading edge radiators. That would not bode well in the sweltering heat of Malaya and India.

P-39 had the same problem, if too much time was spent in the taxiways.
Once in the air, it gets cold fast as you get up a few thousand feet.
Don't forget why the IJA pilots had rabbit fur line flight suits, it wasn't because they were cold on the ground
 
P-39 had the same problem, if too much time was spent in the taxiways.
Once in the air, it gets cold fast as you get up a few thousand feet.
Don't forget why the IJA pilots had rabbit fur line flight suits, it wasn't because they were cold on the ground

I thought it was because they hated cute little bunnies...
 
Top