Westland Whirlwinds to Malaya, 1941

The wiki article plays it slightly different:
“263 Squadron also occasionally carried out day bomber escort missions with the Whirlwinds. One example was when they formed part of the escort of 54 Blenheims on a low-level raid against power stations near Cologne on 12 August 1941; owing to the relatively short range of the escorts, including the Whirlwinds, the fighters turned back near Antwerp, with the bombers continuing on without escort. Ten Blenheims were lost.”

The sources for that quote are listed as "The Vortex from Yeovil: The Story of the Westland Whirlwind Fighter". Air International. Vol. 48 No. 3, March 1995, pp. 157–164. by Alfred Price and “The Hardest Victory: RAF Bomber Command in the Second World War.” by Denis Richards London: Coronet, 1995.
That's very disappointing to read.

My impression was that the Whirlwind was the long-range fighter the RAF badly needed, but it was let down by it's unreliable engines.

I have also read that it was more expensive than the Spitfire. 5 times more expensive springs to mind.

So if the Whirlwind had no operational advantages over the Spitfire it would with hindsight have been better to order 400 Spitfires from Westland instead of 400 Whirlwinds and cancel the 450 Lysanders built in 1941 in the middle of 1940 so that Westland could have concentrated on Spitfire production.
 
This is the salient point:-

'So if the Whirlwind had no operational advantages over the Spitfire it would with hindsight have been better to order 400 Spitfires from Westland instead of 400 Whirlwinds and cancel the 450 Lysanders built in 1941 in the middle of 1940 so that Westland could have concentrated on Spitfire production.'
In the PAM thread I have the Whirlwind canceled and replaced with the Gloster Reaper built at Yeovil, In May 1940 the Lysander production will be curtailed to speed up Reaper production as part of the 'Invasion Panic'. The Gloster aircraft was from the outset designed with ease of construction and dispersed production in mind.
 

Jack1971

Banned
I don’t think we’d see anything but a small extension of of Whirlwind line at Yeovil past the Dec. 1941 closure IOTL. Maybe another 100 or so Whirlwinds get completed, or maybe just spares are produced to support those in the field in the Far East.
 
The point with the problems with the Peregrine were that it was primarily responsible for serious delays in the building of the Whirlwind prototype and subsequently delaying the whole adoption and production schedule. Further IIRC RR considered that there was very little onward development potential in the engine. This was probably due to the fact that the peregrine was a tweaked development for more power of the Kestrel engine design to start with.
I shall have to read through my copy of 'Hives and the Merlin' again to be sure.
 
By the time the Whirlwind finally became a reliable fighter, the Mosquito was rapidly getting up to speed. So the RAF had 2 choices: stick with a (relatively) short-range 4xcannon fighter that depended on an engine used by nothing else, or go for the Mosquito, that used the well developed and widespread Merlin, had massive range and carried 4 belt-fed cannon and 4 MGs. The choice was obvious.
 

Jack1971

Banned
So the RAF had 2 choices: stick with a (relatively) short-range 4xcannon fighter that depended on an engine used by nothing else, or go for the Mosquito,
We can do both and overlap the two. Keep the Whirlwinds until they're about worn out, and then transition the three squadrons over to the eight gun Mosquito.

Wood and glued aircraft in the tropics will suffer some issues, but that's another thread entirely. I suggest, "Mosquitos to Burma, 1944"
 
If the whirlwinds did deploy regardless of the feasibility of this for the various reasons (although perhaps Churchill decides that some modern planes in Malaya would calm down the Dominions while at the same time supplement force Z In deterring the Japanese and spits his dummy out until he gets his way) then the Japanese are in for a nasty surprise.

Possibly most importantly isn't the planes but the pilots and ground crews from the Whirlwind squadrons. These men are coming from a war zone and would include a smattering of real combat veterans. I would expect that after a few snide comments from the new squadrons leaders about readiness and revetments that when the brown stuff hits the fan the Japanese would not manage to hit so many RAF planes on the ground. As Jack mentioned these pilots would know the lessons learnt in Europe and the Middle East and might spread some of this knowledge to other squadrons.

There is also the moral effect of the British/Indian defenders seeing very modern planes arrive as it would make them feel they hadn't been forgotten by London.

Modern cannon armed aircraft are going to be very effective against the fragile Japanese aircraft they would encounter and thanks to the Japanese lack of a deep pilot reserve even a one to one loss ratios is going to hurt the Japanese a lot worse than the British. The Whirlwinds ability to carry bombs would also be very useful during the campaign.

The Malayan campaign was won with fine margins there is the possibility that the fall of Singapore could be substantially delayed which would lead to a very different WW2.
 
That's job one and two for the mechanics during the 22 days transit onboard HMS Furious to Ceylon. Of course the parts would need to be provided beforehand, so this is a plumber's job, not a millwright's. I'd also like a 5 round burst setting added to the triggers, in order to conserve ammunition.I do envision a dozen or more Whirlwinds racing at 360 mph to rescue Force Z on that first day, with additional droptank-equipped Whirlwinds flying CAP over the force. But we must remember that Phillips called for the RAF late in the game, and that was a factor in his loss.
...

Oh, I did not suggested that addition of fuel cross-feed and drop tank facility is some kind of brain srgery, but merely noting what is needed in the theater where range is essential.
I'd also suggest changing a pair of cannons with two pairs of .303s, in order to improve firing time.

The difference is, updates were done on those series of engines to improve them- something not done with the Peregrine. When RR redid the Merlin from the II to the III, the blocks and heads were not interchangeable with the earlier series, so anything originally equipped with a I or II needing repairs, had to use a complete new III.

I'm not saying the Whirlwind couldn't make the trip, but would soon run out of engines from the regular wear and tear of normal operation that any inline engine would experience, plus the overheating that would cause those gasket failures that has a good chance of ruining the engine.

RR redid the Merlin I beacuse those belonged in the flaved 'ramphead Merlins' batch. Peregrine was a later design, later than Merlin III, even later than Merlin X. Whirlwinds running out of engines is a non-issue, they used same engines in 1940 as well as 1942 historically.
What is the source for 'those gasket failures'?

There just not many spares, and the chance of RR restarting Peregrine production for parts, is very low. So with the limited number of engines, the Whirlwind numbers would quickly drop from lack of parts.

Now, what could they do in SE Asia for the short time they would be running? They are short ranged, 134 imperial gallons of fuel with two engines. That's a little more fuel than what a FW-190 carried.
If anyone could find what the specific fuel consumption of the Peregrine was, you can get a good idea of range, my guess is 525-600 miles.

That's not a lot in that area of operation

In this scenario, IMO it is all about what Whirlwind can do during the crucial 2-3 months after the proverbial hits the fan in Malaya. With Japanese logistics on a shoestring, anything bad can happen to them (like delay in Malaya, less panic and better UK/CW defenses, that spirals into more losses to the Japanese, that buys time for Burma, Sumatra and Singapore...).
Whirlwind without drop tanks is barely useful in Malaya, I can go with that.
 
We can do both and overlap the two. Keep the Whirlwinds until they're about worn out, and then transition the three squadrons over to the eight gun Mosquito.

Which is pretty much what the RAF did, afaik. But moving them to the Far East would also mean moving all their unique support infrasture. A lot of work for a handfull of planes.
 

Driftless

Donor
My (limited) understanding of engine performance is that the Peregrine needed a supercharger optimized for high-altitude performance to be a really useful bomber-killer over Northern Europe . Also, as I understand it, the fights in the Pacific/SW Asia theaters were usually fought at lower altitudes, so that performance drop-off should be less of a problem.

So,... while shipping planes and their support equipment and staff to SW Asia would be a hassle; the British would have put a high-performance aircraft at locations where its deficiencies weren't a serious problem and its virtues would have been maximized.

By mid-1941, the British had seen enough of the Bf-110 often getting chewed up in dogfights against more agile single-engine fighters, where they should be considering alternative tactics to best use their own twin-engine Whirlwinds.
 

Jack1971

Banned
Which is pretty much what the RAF did, afaik. But moving them to the Far East would also mean moving all their unique support infrasture. A lot of work for a handfull of planes.
My thinking is that after the fall of Malaya, the surviving Whirlwinds will settle into service in India, alongside the mix bag of worn out and 2nd tier RAF aircraft there, including the Vultee Vengeance, Curtiss Mohawk IV and Hurricanes. We should expect the Whirlwind to serve well in the second Arakan campaign of 1943/44, perhaps with 3" RPs or other underwing ordinance (gun pods?)
By mid-1941, the British had seen enough of the Bf-110 often getting chewed up in dogfights against more agile single-engine fighters, where they should be considering alternative tactics to best use their own twin-engine Whirlwinds.
The Whirlwind is more P-38 than Bf-110. Regardless, the Whirlwind pilots will have BoB experience behind them, so will already know to avoid close-in fighting with single engine fighters, a lesson that will save many from mixing it close with the A6M.
Peregrine was a later design, later than Merlin III,
Was it? I see the Peregrine as an extension of the tried and true Kestrel. Is the Peregrine so much different than the engine the RAF mechanics have been working on since the early 1930s?
 
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The problem with sending any equipment to Malaya is basically there was no fighting going on their before Nov 1941

Meanwhile there was fighting going on over Britian, in the Med, Malta, North Africa and East Africa not to mention several misadventures in the Middle east putting down axis backed uprisings and verses Vichy French colonies

Many of these fronts were in 1941 being fought in an austier fashion by the British commonwealth - take the east africa campaign for example - it was conducted with just 12 Matilda II tanks for the entire later campaign and in the earlier part of the airwar in that theatre the RAF and SAAF squadrons were using an eclectic (read very obsolete) mix of Wellesley bombers, Hawker Hartebeest, Hawker Fury's (one of the, if not thee prettiest planes ever made) and Hawker Hardys - these units 'upgraded' to GLoster Gladiators and Hawker Hurricanes in 1941

So my point is that had Whirlwinds been sent anywhere then Malaya is a distant 5th or 6th after the above locations

This has been an interesting discussion about the merits and failings of the Westlant Whirland. And no doubt if the RAF in Malaysia had a number of them on hand after the start of the Pacific War they would have put them to good use. Especially after the surviving pilots had developed the proper tactics to use against Zeros and Oscars.

But there is the larger question that this thread brings up. How to get anything helpful sent to Malaysia in 1941 when there are more pressing priorities? If somebody had decided to rush the Whirlwinds being kept in Scotland into service there were several other active warzones in 1941 that would have had priority over the quiet peaceful backwater of 1941 Malaysia.

So, how to convince the powers-that-be to direct any modern airplanes of any type to Malaysia before December 1941?
 

Jack1971

Banned
How to get anything helpful sent to Malaysia in 1941 when there are more pressing priorities? If somebody had decided to rush the Whirlwinds being kept in Scotland into service there were several other active warzones in 1941 that would have had priority over the quiet peaceful backwater of 1941 Malaysia.
And there was plenty of war resources sent to your "quiet backwater". Including 140,000 soldiers (and their weapons and kit), including a first rate Australian division, 250 aircraft, 1,000 artillery and AT guns. Add to this the RN sending its latest battleship, along with one of its two remaining 30 knot capable capital ships, and its latest AFD fleet carrier. Given all these war resources being sent out to Malaya during peaceful 1941, why is it considered so inconceivable that Britain might have also sent 52 underemployed fighters?

But, as I said in the opening post, we'll carry on.
Now I know this thread is contrarian bait, and some will be compelled to tell us why this shouldn't, wouldn't or couldn't have happened. But, we'll carry on.
 
But there is the larger question that this thread brings up. How to get anything helpful sent to Malaysia in 1941 when there are more pressing priorities? If somebody had decided to rush the Whirlwinds being kept in Scotland into service there were several other active warzones in 1941 that would have had priority over the quiet peaceful backwater of 1941 Malaysia.
Easy, just send a portion of the supplies Britain sent to the Soviet Union in 1941. This would have very little effect on the Eastern Front as what was sent was a drop in the ocean, but those extra aircraft, tanks and trucks would have a large effect in Malaya.
 
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And there was plenty of war resources sent to your "quiet backwater". Including 140,000 soldiers (and their weapons and kit), including a first rate Australian division, 250 aircraft, 1,000 artillery and AT guns. Add to this the RN sending its latest battleship, along with one of its two remaining 30 knot capable capital ships, and its latest AFD fleet carrier. Given all these war resources being sent out to Malaya during peaceful 1941, why is it considered so inconceivable that Britain might have also sent 52 underemployed fighters?

But, as I said in the opening post, we'll carry on.

If you bring things up for discussion here then they will be discussed. And not everybody is going to nod their heads and say "what a swell idea." Cryhavoc101's post isn't mindless contrarianism but a honest question about why send more planes to Malaysia before the British are at war with Japan while Great Britain, at a desperate time, is being pressed hard at several other places.

Yes it would have been great to better equip the British in the Far-East in 1941. With anything that could be spared. And not just with second rate equipment and with too many (not all) second-rate people. It is a good idea and should have been done. But how? What your opening post on the Whirlwind is not stating is a point of departure. You haven't mentioned anything about what could have been done or said to get those Whirlwinds sent to Malaysia. Along with a hundred or so Hurricanes too while we are at it.

A good POD really makes for a good what-if.
 
Easy, just send a portion of the supplies sent to the Soviet Union. This would have very little effect on the Eastern Front as what was sent was a drop in the ocean, but those extra aircraft, tanks and trucks would have a large effect in Malaya.

Darn right. A lot of stuff that was sent to the USSR could have been better used in other places. But it wasn't known at the time. And since there was the fear of Stalin offering terms to Hitler (which he actually did but was rejected) it was impossible to gauge how much to send or not send to Russia.
 
If you bring things up for discussion here then they will be discussed. And not everybody is going to nod their heads and say "what a swell idea." Cryhavoc101's post isn't mindless contrarianism but a honest question about why send more planes to Malaysia before the British are at war with Japan while Great Britain, at a desperate time, is being pressed hard at several other places.

Yes it would have been great to better equip the British in the Far-East in 1941. With anything that could be spared. And not just with second rate equipment and with too many (not all) second-rate people. It is a good idea and should have been done. But how? What your opening post on the Whirlwind is not stating is a point of departure. You haven't mentioned anything about what could have been done or said to get those Whirlwinds sent to Malaysia. Along with a hundred or so Hurricanes too while we are at it.

A good POD really makes for a good what-if.
This is such a limited activity, with simplicity and hard boundaries, that all it might take to happen is someone high enough up in the chain of command to suddenly think aloud, "Hey, know what we could do with those Whirlwinds that are just gathering dust at such-and-such, why not send them to Singapore? Can't do any worse, and, who knows, might save some bacon if the Japs come a'calling!". Not much of a POD, but, not much of a shift of personnel and equipment, either.
 
This is such a limited activity, with simplicity and hard boundaries, that all it might take to happen is someone high enough up in the chain of command to suddenly think aloud, "Hey, know what we could do with those Whirlwinds that are just gathering dust at such-and-such, why not send them to Singapore? Can't do any worse, and, who knows, might save some bacon if the Japs come a'calling!". Not much of a POD, but, not much of a shift of personnel and equipment, either.

I like it. Maybe someone in the RAF command gets a letter from a fellow officer complaining about how the wood and fabric aircraft components are rotting out in the Tropical climate. "I've got it" he thinks. "We'll ship these all-metal Westland kites out to Singapore." "That'll shut them up."
 
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