Westland Whirlwinds to Malaya, 1941

Jack1971

Banned
With that said, Whirly will need to have fuel cross-feed system installed, and of course the drop tank facility.
That's job one and two for the mechanics during the 22 days transit onboard HMS Furious to Ceylon. Of course the parts would need to be provided beforehand, so this is a plumber's job, not a millwright's. I'd also like a 5 round burst setting added to the triggers, in order to conserve ammunition.
Thus being ready to trash the Japanese best. With Force Z saved, Japanese campaign through Malaya is in problems.
I do envision a dozen or more Whirlwinds racing at 360 mph to rescue Force Z on that first day, with additional droptank-equipped Whirlwinds flying CAP over the force. But we must remember that Phillips called for the RAF late in the game, and that was a factor in his loss.

As an aircraft, I don't think the IJAF has a twin engined fighter capable of matching the Whirlwind until the much later Mitsubishi Ki-83. Four 20mm cannons concentrated in the nose will rip apart the Zeros. If this just dived into your six from above at nearly 400 mph, you're already dead.

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Did the Kestrel have the same issue? It was used for years in great numbers, so I’d have thought its Peregrine derivative should be okay.

But regardless, the Whirlwind, faults and all is coming to Malaya. Perhaps the field mechanics will get it sorted.

The issue here is that the British chucked a lot of effort, minds and treasure at keeping Merlin on the leading edge till the end of the war with very good dedicated production on both sides of the Atlantic and resrouces also provided by the USA.

By comparison Perigrine was a dead end design and did not have the nth of the above resources thrown at it

As for sending it to Malaya - it was being used in the UK in several front line Squadrons where it was a success and seen as a modern type (not like the Buffelo) - however it being a short production run and using a dead end engine it run out of useful life in 1943 - this also precludes it from being sent anywhere as spare airframes could not be sent periodically to maintain front line strength.

There are several places I would send it first before it ended up in Malaya and the same would be true of any top front line fighter at the time

So Spitfires might make it as far as the North African Campaign (they did not until much later) but are not going to Malaya in 1941

What might happen is they get sent to North Africa (for example) and they free up a Wing of fighters to go to Malaya - possibly??
 
For problematic and/or unreliable engines, at least for the 1st 12 months of military service, please see:
BMW 801, Napier Sabre, most of DB engines (601N, 601E, 605A, 603A), A-S Tiger, Bristol Taurus, Gnome & Rhone 14K and 14M. Nakajima Homare, Kawasaki Ha-40.
Still were flown over water and above unhospitable regions.

The difference is, updates were done on those series of engines to improve them- something not done with the Peregrine. When RR redid the Merlin from the II to the III, the blocks and heads were not interchangeable with the earlier series, so anything originally equipped with a I or II needing repairs, had to use a complete new III.

I'm not saying the Whirlwind couldn't make the trip, but would soon run out of engines from the regular wear and tear of normal operation that any inline engine would experience, plus the overheating that would cause those gasket failures that has a good chance of ruining the engine.

There just not many spares, and the chance of RR restarting Peregrine production for parts, is very low. So with the limited number of engines, the Whirlwind numbers would quickly drop from lack of parts.

Now, what could they do in SE Asia for the short time they would be running? They are short ranged, 134 imperial gallons of fuel with two engines. That's a little more fuel than what a FW-190 carried.
If anyone could find what the specific fuel consumption of the Peregrine was, you can get a good idea of range, my guess is 525-600 miles.

That's not a lot in that area of operation
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
True, but the Whirlwinds were pretty much sitting in Scotland, underemployed or in storage. Much like the Buffalo, we're sending a mostly unwanted aircraft to Malaya. And don't forget that Japan has invaded FIC with the clear intent to invade, so there is a real and present threat to be countered, it's not like we're trying to send fighters to the Falklands.I'm not sure. The 5 seconds of ammunition is light. Did the guns have a 5 round burst button? And those early cannons were prone to jamming, but perhaps the drum fed were more reliable? Looking here at the cockpit schematic it looks like it's a single trigger button. https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/westland-whirlwind.47081/
5 second of ammo isn't really "five seconds" of fighting. Aircraft, especially with cannon usually had a system that would allow a "burst" of 5-10 rounds per trigger "pull". Since two or three hits from a 20mm was enough to cripple/kill most 1940-42 era aircraft the limit was more than reasonable. Pilots could also choose to only charge one or two guns at a time, once against stretching ammo.

The difficulty for the Whirlwinds would be trying to mix it up with Zeros, and to a lesser extent the Oscar. Most WAllied pilots failed to take advantage of their aircraft's strengths (usually the survivability of the airframe, the ability to use weight and engine power in a zoom climb) to counter the nimble but flawed A6M. With only three squadrons, all out on the bleeding edge, there is a limited amount of time and materials to learn the necessary lessone.
 

Jack1971

Banned
As for sending it to Malaya - this also precludes it from being sent anywhere
There are several places I would send it first before it ended up in Malaya
I did my best to cover this, and I'll not enter into a circular debate. The Whirlwinds are going to Malaya, if you can't accept this, I'm good.
Now I know this thread is contrarian bait, and some will be compelled to tell us why this shouldn't, wouldn't or couldn't have happened. But, we'll carry on.
 
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Jack1971

Banned
I'm not saying the Whirlwind couldn't make the trip, but would soon run out of engines from the regular wear and tear of normal operation that any inline engine would experience,
Good point, and I do envision several aircraft being stripped for parts.

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According to Wikipedia there were over 300 Peregrines produced. With only 116 Whirlwinds made, that should leave at least 50 spare engines somewhere in the UK supply system. And, I wonder how difficult it would be to maintain or repair the Peregrine at RAF air bases? Much of the Peregrine's design is the same as the Kestrel, so the field experience should be there. Is it just head gaskets, valve guides and top end work?
 
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So, early October 1941, 54 Whirlwinds (18 aircraft per squadron - including spares) set sail on the deck of HMS Furious for a fast transit to Ceylon (22 days at 20 knots from Portsmouth, UK via Cape), in time to return to Gibraltar to re-join Force H in Nov-Dec. 1941. During the trip the aircraft are modified to carry drop tanks and each is equipped with a fuel bypass valve to share fuel between engines, while at the same time runway extensions are prepared in Burma and Malaya. Arriving at Trincomalee in late October, the 54 aircraft, equipped with drop tanks for 1,500 mile ferry range, fly 1,200 miles to RAF Mingaladon, refuel and then fly the 1,100 miles to RAF Seletar, Singapore. Loaner pilots from Trincomalee who brought over the spare aircraft are sent back to Ceylon.
The way you've written that suggests that the Whirlwinds were taken off using a crane rather than flown off. If that is correct why can't they be sent out in the aircraft transports Athene and Engadine? Or they could be sent out as deck cargo on a freighter.

Is there any particular reason why they were unloaded at Trincomalee instead of Furious going all the way to Singapore?
 

Jack1971

Banned
The way you've written that suggests that the Whirlwinds were taken off using a crane rather than flown off. If that is correct why can't they be sent out in the aircraft transports Athene and Engadine? Or they could be sent out as deck cargo on a freighter.

Is there any particular reason why they were unloaded at Trincomalee instead of Furious going all the way to Singapore?
Furious is needed back in the Med, for service per OTL, including Operation Torch. Especially now that Ark Royal has sunk. But as it only adds about a week, you might be right. I was looking to Furious since she's fast.
 
If they can get to Malaya they will be of great help, provided the mechanical problems can be resolved. And lack of spare parts will probably be a issue...
 

Driftless

Donor
I doubt the Whirly's would be enough to turn the tide, but the Japanese were running on logistical fumes by the time Singapore fell. Any mechanism that delays the fall (even temporarily) of Malaya, Singapore, and Burma is very useful to the Allied cause.
 
Now, the Whirlwind is hardly well suited for the situation in Malaya. It’s short ranged, required a long and hard runway, and its 20mm cannons while powerful, were only supplied with 60 rounds per gun for a total 5 seconds of shooting (one aircraft was fitted with 12x.303mg to help address this issue). But RAF is refusing to release Spitfires or additional Hurricanes, so the Whirlwind is a take it or leave it situation.
I'm not sure that it's short ranged. In August 1941 the Whirlwinds of No. 263 Squadron escorted Blenhiems to Cologne in daylight. That is a according to my copy of Salamander's An Illustrated Guide to Allied Fighters of World War II by Bill Gunston.
 
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I'm not sure that it's short ranged. In August 1941 the Whirlwinds of No. 263 Squadron escorted Blenhiems to Cologne in daylight. That is a according to my copy of Salamander An Illustrated Guide to Allied Fighters of World War II by Bill Gunston.

It had 134 Imp. gallons of fuel for 1770HP worth engines on 250sq.ft. of wing. High wingloading means it just won't cruise that efficiently
 
Maybe success of some degree keeps the line open?

westland-whirlwind%205.jpg

http://www.yeovilhistory.info/westland-whirlwind.htm
If Westland did built more Whirlwinds it would have to make less of something else. This is what Westland was building in 1941 IOTL.
  • 400 Whirlwinds were ordered from Westland. 114 were built and delivered June 1940 to December 1941. I don't know when the other 286 were cancelled. I've also read that 1,000 were to have been built at Castle Bromwich.
  • 300 Spitfires were ordered from Westland in August 1940 and they were delivered from 18th July 1941 to 7th September 1942
  • 450 Lysanders built by Westland were delivered from February 1941 to January 1942. Another 100 were cancelled.
 
What is a good combat mission radius for the Whirlwind? I've seen as low as 150 and as high as 300 and of course drop tanks can make a difference.
 

Deleted member 94680

I'm not sure that it's short ranged. In August 1941 the Whirlwinds of No. 263 Squadron escorted Blenhiems to Cologne in daylight. That is a according to my copy of Salamander's An Illustrated Guide to Allied Fighters of World War II by Bill Gunston.

The wiki article plays it slightly different:
“263 Squadron also occasionally carried out day bomber escort missions with the Whirlwinds. One example was when they formed part of the escort of 54 Blenheims on a low-level raid against power stations near Cologne on 12 August 1941; owing to the relatively short range of the escorts, including the Whirlwinds, the fighters turned back near Antwerp, with the bombers continuing on without escort. Ten Blenheims were lost.”

The sources for that quote are listed as "The Vortex from Yeovil: The Story of the Westland Whirlwind Fighter". Air International. Vol. 48 No. 3, March 1995, pp. 157–164. by Alfred Price and “The Hardest Victory: RAF Bomber Command in the Second World War.” by Denis Richards London: Coronet, 1995.
 
What is a good combat mission radius for the Whirlwind? I've seen as low as 150 and as high as 300 and of course drop tanks can make a difference.

A Spitfire IX, with similar power and 130 Imp. Gallons of Fuel was 685 miles at most economical cruise(220mph), so the Whirlwind should be close to this. As speed increased, so did range decrease. At 'Maximum Weak Mixture Power' the IX range was 387 miles at 328mph

The Blenheim cruised at 200 mph
 
If the Whirlwind is to have a greater production run it probably means using a different engine to the Peregrine as keeping a production line for a single use low production engine isn't viable. The usual alternate suggested is the Merlin but there are problems making that questionable. Perhaps they could use the Bristol Taurus instead, as the Gloster Reaper was flown with both engines instead.
 

Deleted member 94680

If the Whirlwind is to have a greater production run it probably means using a different engine to the Peregrine as keeping a production line for a single use low production engine isn't viable. The usual alternate suggested is the Merlin but there are problems making that questionable. Perhaps they could use the Bristol Taurus instead, as the Gloster Reaper was flown with both engines instead.

What about American radial engines? That was suggested, wasn’t it?

If the Malayan Whirlibombers prove themselves successful, what chance Whirlwind production continues and replaces (or reduces), say, Beaufort production?
 
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