Westland Whirlwinds to Malaya, 1941

Jack1971

Banned
RAF Malaya was seen as the dumping ground for obsolete or unwanted RAF types, such as the Buffalo and Vildebeest. So, let’s have Malaya Commands requests for better aircraft results in RAF 263 Squadron (fully equipped with Whirlwinds Dec 1940), RAF 137 Squadron (equipped with Whirlwinds Sep 1941) and RAF 25 Squadron (ITTL equipped with Whirlwinds Dec 1940) being transferred to Malaya Command in October 1941, about the same time as Force Z departs the UK.

Now, the Whirlwind is hardly well suited for the situation in Malaya. It’s short ranged, required a long and hard runway, and its 20mm cannons while powerful, were only supplied with 60 rounds per gun for a total 5 seconds of shooting (one aircraft was fitted with 12x.303mg to help address this issue). But RAF is refusing to release Spitfires or additional Hurricanes, so the Whirlwind is a take it or leave it situation.

So, early October 1941, 54 Whirlwinds (18 aircraft per squadron - including spares) set sail on the deck of HMS Furious for a fast transit to Ceylon (22 days at 20 knots from Portsmouth, UK via Cape), in time to return to Gibraltar to re-join Force H in Nov-Dec. 1941. During the trip the aircraft are modified to carry drop tanks and each is equipped with a fuel bypass valve to share fuel between engines, while at the same time runway extensions are prepared in Burma and Malaya. Arriving at Trincomalee in late October, the 54 aircraft, equipped with drop tanks for 1,500 mile ferry range, fly 1,200 miles to RAF Mingaladon, refuel and then fly the 1,100 miles to RAF Seletar, Singapore. Loaner pilots from Trincomalee who brought over the spare aircraft are sent back to Ceylon.

By first week of November the three squadrons are operational, and practicing their bombing tactics and strike interceptions. Meanwhile a further fifty Whirlwind aircraft are crated and sent by ship to India, intended for onward ship to Singapore by February.

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Now I know this thread is contrarian bait, and some will be compelled to tell us why this shouldn't, wouldn't or couldn't have happened. But, we'll carry on.

Three squadrons of Whirlwinds won't change the war, but they may help save Force Z for a day, as they could get to the area faster than the Buffaloes, and will rip the bombers apart (if only for 5 seconds). And how does the Whirlwind compare against the Zero? Given its heavier twin engine design I wonder if its pilots were already briefed about not close dogfighting with Bf-109s, so they may have a chance to avoid close in destruction from the A6M.

And, assuming the Whirlwinds are withdrawn once the IJA is closing in on Singapore, where are they withdrawn to? And how and from where do they fight on? My thinking is they go to Sumatra and then immediately fly to Burma or India, where the 50 additional crated Whirlwinds will soon arrive. Will we see the Whirlwind fight on into 1944 in India and Burma? Will spares be an issue? Can the Whirlwind's long take off requirements be accommodated in India/Burma?
 
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The problem with sending any equipment to Malaya is basically there was no fighting going on their before Nov 1941

Meanwhile there was fighting going on over Britian, in the Med, Malta, North Africa and East Africa not to mention several misadventures in the Middle east putting down axis backed uprisings and verses Vichy French colonies

Many of these fronts were in 1941 being fought in an austier fashion by the British commonwealth - take the east africa campaign for example - it was conducted with just 12 Matilda II tanks for the entire later campaign and in the earlier part of the airwar in that theatre the RAF and SAAF squadrons were using an eclectic (read very obsolete) mix of Wellesley bombers, Hawker Hartebeest, Hawker Fury's (one of the, if not thee prettiest planes ever made) and Hawker Hardys - these units 'upgraded' to GLoster Gladiators and Hawker Hurricanes in 1941

The same was pretty much true of other fronts such as North Africa which had to wait until mid 42 before it was graced with Spitfires and was soldiering on with P40s and Hurricanes for much of the campaign (the Writer Roald Dahl converted to Hurricane literally as he went to reinforce the fighter units in Greece

So my point is that had Whirlwinds been sent anywhere then Malaya is a distant 5th or 6th after the above locations

Aside from that I am a big fan of the Whirlwind - I always wondered how effective it would have been knocking German bombers out of the air during the summer had it been placed into operations earlier
 

Jack1971

Banned
The problem with sending any equipment to Malaya is basically there was no fighting going on their before Nov 1941
True, but the Whirlwinds were pretty much sitting in Scotland, underemployed or in storage. Much like the Buffalo, we're sending a mostly unwanted aircraft to Malaya. And don't forget that Japan has invaded FIC with the clear intent to invade, so there is a real and present threat to be countered, it's not like we're trying to send fighters to the Falklands.
T I always wondered how effective it would have been knocking German bombers out of the air
I'm not sure. The 5 seconds of ammunition is light. Did the guns have a 5 round burst button? And those early cannons were prone to jamming, but perhaps the drum fed were more reliable? Looking here at the cockpit schematic it looks like it's a single trigger button. https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/westland-whirlwind.47081/
 

Driftless

Donor
I believe one of the several knocks against the Peregrines, was performance deteriorated at high altitude. So either Malaya or North Africa should have been more viable air space for the Whirly... or would heat, humidity, or dust just have changed one problem for another?

Still, the Whirlwinds speed and firepower would have given the Japanese some gray hairs
 

Jack1971

Banned
I believe one of the several knocks against the Peregrines, was performance deteriorated at high altitude. So either Malaya or North Africa should have been more viable air space for the Whirly...
Having just returned from Singapore and Malaysia, I can attest to the high humidity, and dense air. No worries for dust, though you're more referring to Africa.

What do you think of my proposal to have the aircraft flown from Ceylon to Burma and then onto Singapore? Would RAF pilots in single crew aircraft be able to navigate over the ocean for such a distance? Perhaps a FAA Fulmar could guide the way.
 

Driftless

Donor
The viability of a ferry flight over the Indian Ocean is beyond my knowledge level. I believe similar flights were done elsewhere by fighters guiding off bombers with navigators on board. I'd think such a flight could be possible
 
Ferry flights in the Indian Ocean are going to be hard, the distances are hideous (something I've learned doing my TL) and the range for a Whirlwind isn't that great although I'm not sure how easily it could be fitted with ferry tanks, I suppose that may be a possibility.
 
One area where I could see the Whirlwinds better employed would be in Burma not so much as a fighter but as an fast attack aircraft (something it seemed to do pretty well at in France OTL) harassing the Japanese when they are on the move to include coastal maritime traffic.

That gives me some ideas for my TL...
 

Jack1971

Banned
Ferry flights in the Indian Ocean are going to be hard, the distances are hideous
Is a 1,200 mile run considered hideous? Provided clear weather and a fast pathfinder to provide navigation (such as a FAA Fulmar), with a cruising speed of 270 mph, it’s a total flight of under five hours.

This assumes droptanks are freasible. Replacing the two 240 lb bombs with equivalent fuel should give a range of over 1,500 miles. This gives sufficient margin of error.
 
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Jack1971

Banned
One area where I could see the Whirlwinds better employed would be in Burma.
Hmmm.... makes me think maybe we should leave one or two of the squadrons of Whirlwinds at RAF Mingaladon.

A CAS mission profile may be interesting. Consider adding bomb racks between the engine and fuselage, freeing up the wing outside of the engines for 3” rockets. Though the cockpit position and high stall speed may hinder locating ground targets.
 
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enough flight distance that the engine will need to be rebuilt, since they weren't factory fresh.

" ... It is interesting to note that the RAF got an average, and amazing engine life of 1500 hours with the V-1710-39 -- three times the life of the average Merlin. "


Michael O'Leary. P-51 Mustang: Production Line to Frontline

And Merlins were a lot more reliable than Peregrines
 

Jack1971

Banned
And Merlins were a lot more reliable than Peregrines
They were? Wikipedia mentions reliability issues with the Peregrine, but does elaborate nor make comparison to the Merlin. Where do you see that the Merlin is “a lot” more reliable than the Peregrine?

Given only two operational squadrons IOTL, and that most of the hundred plus Whirlwinds produced saw little to no service, I’d think we can rustle up 52 examples in good shape. The RAF maintenance guys also have over three weeks at sea to work on the aircraft, though no one will be stripping engines on open decks.

For the delivery flights we’re only asking the 52 aircraft to undertake two ferry flights, the longest of which is under five hours. I don’t think we’ll wear them out in delivery.
 
They were?

Given only two operational squadrons IOTL, and that most of the hundred plus Whirlwinds produced saw little to no service, I’d think we can rustle up 52 examples in good shape. The RAF maintenance guys also have over three weeks at sea to work on the aircraft.

For the delivery flights we’re only asking the 52 aircraft to undertake two ferry flights, the longest of which is under five hours. I don’t think we’ll wear them out in delivery.

RR really didn't get the head gasket problem on the Merlin solved till the Merlin III, the Peregrine was never fixed
 

Jack1971

Banned
RR really didn't get the head gasket problem on the Merlin solved till the Merlin III, the Peregrine was never fixed
Did the Kestrel have the same issue? It was used for years in great numbers, so I’d have thought its Peregrine derivative should be okay.

But regardless, the Whirlwind, faults and all is coming to Malaya. Perhaps the field mechanics will get it sorted.
 
They were? Wikipedia mentions reliability issues with the Peregrine, but does elaborate nor make comparison to the Merlin. For the delivery flights we’re only asking the 52 aircraft to undertake two ferry flights, the longest of which is under five hours. I don’t think we’ll wear them out in delivery.
The Peregrine was used from 1940 to 1942 in continuous normal service including strikes across the Channel. The minor issues were early sorted mostly by the pilot notes which dealt with overheating on the ground. The 'reliability issues' of the Peregrine get repeated just because they were mentioned in early writings. You don't keep an engine in daily combat use for three years over water with 'reliability issues'. Even the 'higbh' landing speed issue was dealt with by aerodromes growing larger as fighters got heavier and were upgraded to concrete runways.
 
The Peregrine was used from 1940 to 1942 in continuous normal service including strikes across the Channel.

As was the Merlin I and II, that had the head gasket problems as well for the early Battles, Spits and Hurricanes, that flew across water to France

Merlin was fixed
 

Deleted member 94680

True, but the Whirlwinds were pretty much sitting in Scotland, underemployed or in storage. Much like the Buffalo, we're sending a mostly unwanted aircraft to Malaya.

The problem with sending any equipment to Malaya is basically there was no fighting going on their before Nov 1941

So my point is that had Whirlwinds been sent anywhere then Malaya is a distant 5th or 6th after the above locations

Maybe there’s some kind of panic? Were the Japanese in a position to threaten anything British earlier? Anyone in authority keen to reinforce out that way earlier?
They were sat unused in Scotland as they were considered unreliable, that doesn’t bode well for them being deployed as a solution to anything other than the most dire of situations.

One area where I could see the Whirlwinds better employed would be in Burma not so much as a fighter but as an fast attack aircraft (something it seemed to do pretty well at in France OTL) harassing the Japanese when they are on the move to include coastal maritime traffic.

A CAS mission profile may be interesting. Consider adding bomb racks between the engine and fuselage, freeing up the wing outside of the engines for 3” rockets. Though the cockpit position and high stall speed may hinder locating ground targets.

Well, OTL, most of their work was CAS or ground attack. Whirlwind IIs (nicknamed ‘Whirlibombers’) were fighter-bomber conversions, so the precedence is there. Their design didn’t seem to hamper them attacking shipping and trains OTL, so I can’t see a problem with this usage ATL.
 

hipper

Banned
Ferry flights in the Indian Ocean are going to be hard, the distances are hideous (something I've learned doing my TL) and the range for a Whirlwind isn't that great although I'm not sure how easily it could be fitted with ferry tanks, I suppose that may be a possibility.

Pre war it’s manageable as the RAF could take short hops through India Burma and to Malaya. They had a network of airbases to achieve this
 

Jack1971

Banned
Maybe there’s some kind of panic? Were the Japanese in a position to threaten anything British earlier? Anyone in authority keen to reinforce out that way earlier?
Not a panic, but we’re sending the Whirlwinds at the same time as Force Z is sent to Singapore. If the circumstances warrant sending the RN’s latest battleship, then sending 50 odd underemployed fighters isn’t a stretch.

But put that aside, since it’s not a question of if they’re being sent, or if they’re sufficiently reliable or suitable. The Whirlwinds are coming. The questions are what impact they’ll have, what roles they’ll preform and what to do with them once Malaya falls?
 
The issues with Peregrine are overblown. A batch of 300 produced engines kept 100+ Whirlwinds in service for three years, and with early 100 oct fuel was good for +9 psi boost (~1000 HP in Peregrine). Using vague statemnts from Wikipedia is counterproductive.

For problematic and/or unreliable engines, at least for the 1st 12 months of military service, please see:
BMW 801, Napier Sabre, most of DB engines (601N, 601E, 605A, 603A), A-S Tiger, Bristol Taurus, Gnome & Rhone 14K and 14M. Nakajima Homare, Kawasaki Ha-40.
Still were flown over water and above unhospitable regions.

With that said, Whirly will need to have fuel cross-feed system installed, and of course the drop tank facility. Thus being ready to trash the Japanese best. With Force Z saved, Japanese campaign through Malaya is in problems.
 
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