"Western" world and "Islamic" world switch sides.

So, as the title implies, what and how would it take to make the Muslim world and Western world switch positions ? So the Muslim world (not to be called Muslim World, at least officially) would be as powerful as the Western world today, while Western World(not to be called Western World, but "Christian World"/"Frank World" instead. Unless you have a better name which would make things more interesting...) would be in a screwed position as much as the Muslim World today, both in relatively very much the same ways as their equivalent IOTL.
 
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That could be tricky. I would take a guess at no Crusades or Mongol Invasion for the Muslim World, allow it to progress further than it did in the OTL.

For the Christian World, one of these three things.

a) No crusades mean no renaissance in Europe. Europe falls behind in the rest of the world and loses a critical chance to gain control over the Americas, which become colonised by the Mughal Indian Empire, the Chinese and the Muslims. Huge swaths of Europe are also conquered by these factions, causing turmoil.

b) An asteroid or other cataclysm crashes or occurs in the Atlantic during the Middle Ages, flooding the British Isles, France, Iberia and other nations. The central countries are overrun with refugees from the West and are constantly under attack from the East. Again, no renaissance.

c) The Vikings are far more powerful conquerors than they were in the OTL, and they last for much longer. Could occur if Harold the Viking becomes king of England in 1066 instead of William. They last much longer and attack and ravage Western Europe during the 1400s and 1500s, putting them back centuries. No renaissance.

So my formula is No renaissance for the West and no irritating outside conquerors for the Middle East :p
 
a) No crusades mean no renaissance in Europe. Europe falls behind in the rest of the world and loses a critical chance to gain control over the Americas, which become colonised by the Mughal Indian Empire, the Chinese and the Muslims. Huge swaths of Europe are also conquered by these factions, causing turmoil.

b) An asteroid or other cataclysm crashes or occurs in the Atlantic during the Middle Ages, flooding the British Isles, France, Iberia and other nations. The central countries are overrun with refugees from the West and are constantly under attack from the East. Again, no renaissance.

a) Well, Mughal is a Muslim state, no ? ;) Multicultural, yes. But essentially a Muslim state. Aurangzeb had made it clear. :p

b) :rolleyes:....

How about if I forbid the inclusion of any Natural Cataclysmic disasters that would gravely shatter Europe in instance into the scenarios ? Can you elaborate under this condition ? ;)
 
You'd need a much bigger muslim world, much of the araes that make up the muslim world really aren't on very nice land.
Where to go- could be anywhere. Further into India or Europe or wherever.
 
You'd need a much bigger muslim world, much of the araes that make up the muslim world really aren't on very nice land.
Where to go- could be anywhere. Further into India or Europe or wherever.

To India? Maybe. But for to Europe, I think that at least it should be well limited, as if not it would gonna defeat the purpose of this thread by eliminating the presence of European civilization, wouldn't it ?
 

Keenir

Banned
To India? Maybe. But for to Europe, I think that at least it should be well limited, as it would gonna defeat the purpose of this thread by eliminating the presence of European civilization, wouldn't it ?

an, but that depends on which subset of European civilization you mean - Greek/Germanic/Iberian/British/Med. ?
 
an, but that depends on which subset of European civilization you mean - Greek/Germanic/Iberian/British/Med. ?

So long as they have certain similarities, such as the existence of feeling threatened by the cultural dominance of the "Muslim World" which they cannot penetrate whatsoever which further cause them to behave pretty much like the "official" "Radical Muslims" as now well known by public, etc.
 
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Rockingham

Banned
a) Well, Mughal is a Muslim state, no ? ;) Multicultural, yes. But essentially a Muslim state. Aurangzeb had made it clear. :p

b) :rolleyes:....

How about if I forbid the inclusion of any Natural Cataclysmic disasters that would gravely shatter Europe in instance into the scenarios ? Can you elaborate under this condition ? ;)
Well, Aurangzeb can be butterflied away...much like in Tony Jones TL, the Mughal Empire didn't have to be like that. But I think this ignores one critical factor. The flourishing of the Mughal Empire, in itself, was directly related to the spending spree Europe went on when it was flushed with American Gold, one that didn't really end until the 1700-1850, when that trend was reversed in both India and China.

If American discovery is butterflied away for a while, or occurs differently, major butterfly effects on Mughal, and Chineses economy, in all likelihood negative. However, it would be very positive for what ever nations occupy the OTL Ottoman territories.

You'd need a much bigger muslim world, much of the araes that make up the muslim world really aren't on very nice land.
Where to go- could be anywhere. Further into India or Europe or wherever.
Iberia is OK, and they had that a while. Southern Italy would also be reasonable. Having Iran not being devestated by Mongols would do wonders for their agriculture, which they failed to recover from for a long time.

I think part of the key is not just to annexe "nice land" but make the most of what they have. Having Mali survive, for and remain a durable civilisation for a long time would be immeasurbaly positive, for example......its just not located in what is commonly seen as the Islamic world. Having it recieve a large part of the American gold transfusion that OTL went to spain, in addition to the gold they already have and other exports, and they could perhaps fuel a boom in the Iberian economy in much the same way Europe fuelled China and India's...... while developing Mali as well

The crusade idea is pretty good IMO as well. If you follow that to its logical conclusion, a stronger Islamic world and a strong caliphate, perhaps extending into Persia....... then, assumiong the Mongols or some other tribe going on a rampage through the steppes, the could be rebuffed on the Persian frontiers, and lauanch a heavier assault on Europe then OTL....thus, two twin disasters, the lack or failure of the crusades and far greater Mongol devestation of Europe(while essentially leaving the Islamic world alone), places Islam on a crash course for a wank.

And perhaps if the Monglos attacked the Byzantines, the Muslims could sack Constantinople an take it rather earlier then OTL.:)
 
If American discovery is butterflied away for a while, or occurs differently, major butterfly effects on Mughal, and Chineses economy, in all likelihood negative. However, it would be very positive for what ever nations occupy the OTL Ottoman territories.

You mentioned the words I underlined only because you wanted to, no ? Because I don't see the rise of Ottomans into becoming a great power would necessarily be prevented by delaying or butterflying the discovery of America. Though maybe if there'll be no European sailors to reach Indian Ocean and successfully monopolize spice trades there, then Egypt won't be to tempting for the Ottomans to conquer, at least until (relatively...) for a while.
 
Have the Mongols do better in the 1240's in attacking Europe.
This butterflies away there attacks on Mesopotamia/Egypt in the 1260's.
The Black Death is carried by the Mongols to Europe, and doesn't affect the Med /Mesopotamia [Islamic world] as much.
The Death cases the Mongol Empire to Splinter, leaving Europe to Slowly recover.
 

Keenir

Banned
You mentioned the words I underlined only because you wanted to, no ? Because I don't see the rise of Ottomans into becoming a great power would necessarily be prevented by delaying or butterflying the discovery of America. Though maybe if there'll be no European sailors to reach Indian Ocean and successfully monopolize spice trades there, then Egypt won't be to tempting for the Ottomans to conquer, at least until (relatively...) for a while.

one of the bigger factors in the long Ottoman decline in OTL was the money problem -- Spain essentially flooded the European markets with New World gold and silver, which affected the value of money everywhere.
 
Even after Poitiers the Muslims remained North of the Pyrenees for a generation or so, so even if one sees a defeat like Poitiers as inevitable (better enemy, over-stretch etc), it need not be the end. If someone other than Charlemagne had come to the throne, if he had been defeated by the Lombards even, then Muslim civilisation in S France could have flourished, acted as a buffer to Islamic Iberia, and allowed for the survival of the relatively moderate and advanced form of the religion there

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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