Western Europe SAVES Byzantine Empire

ITTL, let's just say that Western Europe did
give sufficient aid to save(or @ least extend
the life of)the Byzantine Empire. But what
would have been the best date for Western
Europe to do so? The latest possible date?
(I would say by the end of the 14th Century
it was already too late)
 
The first crusade was suposedly a help toward the Byzantine and despite official pledge of returning Levant land to Constantinople, the crusaders kept it for themsleves and created the kingdom of Jerusalem.

Having them keeping their promise would be a good POD
 
ITTL, let's just say that Western Europe did
give sufficient aid to save(or @ least extend
the life of)the Byzantine Empire. But what
would have been the best date for Western
Europe to do so? The latest possible date?
(I would say by the end of the 14th Century
it was already too late)
Have Venice stop its Byzantine hate boner and send the Crusade to Egypt. If you do that, the Romans don't really need aid, they were capable of handling the Turks themselves
 
SL totally correct!

Byzantium fragmented after the Venetian led sack of the city. Way to go fellow Christians! Howasabout a little excommunication!!!

:)
 
The first crusade was suposedly a help toward the Byzantine and despite official pledge of returning Levant land to Constantinople, the crusaders kept it for themsleves and created the kingdom of Jerusalem.

Having them keeping their promise would be a good POD

It was some help: Nicaea was returned to the Romans after the crusaders took it, and the Sultanate of Rum was repeatedly defeated, which aided the Romans as they tried to reconquer Anatolia. It was not all the help the Romans were expecting, though.
 
IMO, the latest possible scenario for a survival of Byzantium would be the Varna Crusade of 1442. Have the Ottomans make enough mistakes in this campaign and be defeated by the Crusader coalition and there you have it, a sovereign Byzantium lingering on, if as a puppet of Hungary and Venice.
 
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IMO, the latest possible scenario for a survival of Byzantium would be the Varna Crusade of 1442. Have the Ottomans make enough mistakes in this campaign and be defeated by the Crusader coalition and there you have it, a sovereign Byzantium lingering on, if as a puppet of Hungary and Venice.

@Halagaz has a scenario alike to this.


I was actually making a map of this scenario at one point, based on the existing plans and developments between the Crusader allies. But I never got around to finishing it. The outline looks like this:

vrnskc1.png


The Byzantine Empire regains central Greece and most of Thrace.
The crusading army resurrects Bulgaria as a kingdom, and John Hunyadi is its first king.
Serbia restores its pre-war territories and expands slightly.
Venice regains some ports in the Aegean and Greece. Most importantly, the Venetians might get the city of Thessaloniki, and maybe even Gallipoli.
Ragusa starts off a tiny merchant Empire by acquiring one or two ports in Albania.
 
The first crusade was suposedly a help toward the Byzantine and despite official pledge of returning Levant land to Constantinople, the crusaders kept it for themsleves and created the kingdom of Jerusalem.

Having them keeping their promise would be a good POD

@Rdffigueira has a TL with that premise, “And All the Nations Shall Gather to It,” already.
 
Have Venice stop its Byzantine hate boner and send the Crusade to Egypt. If you do that, the Romans don't really need aid, they were capable of handling the Turks themselves
Would they? The Romans in 1204 couldn't handle the Crusaders, I'm not sure they could stop the Turks. They might be able to keep them out of Europe, but I was under the impression that the Byzantines in 1204 were in need of some serious reform.
 

ar-pharazon

Banned
There were efforts made up until the very fall of the city almost to get reconcialiation with the Catholic Church and the papacy.

If this had been achieved I think it could have helped the Byzantines in the long run.
 
The map link's broken :(

Strange. Some of my other images are also broken.

Either way, the map I posted there was probably this draft:
sk_varna.png


I think the Crusade of 1444 was the last opportunity to save the Byzantine Empire. That's why exploring the potential aftermath is one of my favorite topics.
 
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The first crusade was suposedly a help toward the Byzantine and despite official pledge of returning Levant land to Constantinople, the crusaders kept it for themsleves and created the kingdom of Jerusalem.

Having them keeping their promise would be a good POD
First they need a reason. In OTL they were doing all the legwork and then you had the emperor actually turning his army around and hightailing it away from critical battles and sieges. I can 100% see why they told him to get fucked after risking their lives without much support from him.
Have Venice stop its Byzantine hate boner and send the Crusade to Egypt. If you do that, the Romans don't really need aid, they were capable of handling the Turks themselves
Venice never had a hate boner, it risked years of productivity and trade, essentially its entire economy, to build the transport fleet which the crusaders said they needed. After that it was still up to the crusaders to pay, and Alexios would pay them if he was restored, and then once he was restored he locked them out of the city to starve without any pay. If the sitting emperor can be overthrown by a bunch of dudes in boats led by a guy who was deposed, and then the usurper can get overthrown by those same now depleted and hungry boys, I don't think the Byzantines were that capable honestly.
 
There were efforts made up until the very fall of the city almost to get reconcialiation with the Catholic Church and the papacy.

If this had been achieved I think it could have helped the Byzantines in the long run.
I wasn't talking about the Catholic Church, I was talking about the Crusader Kings, they didn't know what they were doing and the Crusades only got as far as they did with luck. The Byzantines did know what to do and how to conquer in the Levant. It was really only the Byzantines with sensible tactics and diplomacy needed to succeed in the Crusades
 
I wasn't talking about the Catholic Church, I was talking about the Crusader Kings, they didn't know what they were doing and the Crusades only got as far as they did with luck. The Byzantines did know what to do and how to conquer in the Levant. It was really only the Byzantines with sensible tactics and diplomacy needed to succeed in the Crusades
What he's saying is that such a reconciliation would incentivise the crusaders to aid the Byzantines. What reason do they really have to help them aside from that aside from those created by our modern hindsight such as the macroeconomic and political? If they reconcile then the crusaders could be more willing to actually help but aside from that they have no reason to go out of their way to help 'heretics'.
 
ITTL, let's just say that Western Europe did
give sufficient aid to save(or @ least extend
the life of)the Byzantine Empire. But what
would have been the best date for Western
Europe to do so? The latest possible date?
(I would say by the end of the 14th Century
it was already too late)
Maybe they reach Out dir Help elsewhere. Maybe the Golden Horde comes to the rescue.
 
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