Greece is the cradle of Western culture so how would it be different if Persia had managed to subdue Greece in the Greco-Persian War? Would it have been taken over by Persian culture or have a mix? Or could it really have little impact?
Western culture with Persian Greece?
- Thread starter MrNumbahOne
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Little impact. Plato and Aristotle would have still existed. Even when they were controlled by Rome, they popped out Plotinus. So, Greek thought is still highly influential.
Now, the Bible's manuscripts may all be in Aramaic and not Greek. This means many Greek words that have found their way into our vernacular due to Christian heritage (i.e. "Ecclesia" is Greek for "assembly" and this is where we get the word "Ecclesiastical.") So, the language of religion is highly Aramaic and Latinized, instead of Greek. Philosophically and politically, Greek ideas would still hold sway because they did in Rome. Honestly, if Rome dumped Greek ideas in favor of Egyptian or Persian ones, then this butterflies away Greece as the cradle of western civilization.
Now, the Bible's manuscripts may all be in Aramaic and not Greek. This means many Greek words that have found their way into our vernacular due to Christian heritage (i.e. "Ecclesia" is Greek for "assembly" and this is where we get the word "Ecclesiastical.") So, the language of religion is highly Aramaic and Latinized, instead of Greek. Philosophically and politically, Greek ideas would still hold sway because they did in Rome. Honestly, if Rome dumped Greek ideas in favor of Egyptian or Persian ones, then this butterflies away Greece as the cradle of western civilization.
Assuming we're talking of a similar situation than in your previous thread.
First : Greece isn't the cradle of Western Culture, but one of these, and arguably the main transmitter of eastern influences trough Western Europe.
And don't forget that by the Vth century, Great Greece (southern Italy) and Massalia (to speak only about these) were already a thing when it came to Greek culture and influence.
That said, the Greek culture would have been mainly the same (after all Anatolian Greek cities didn't suffered from huge change IOTL). Persia was a multicultural empire, that never really searched to impose its conceptions to conquered or vassalized peoples.
It doesn't mean that Persian influence on Greek culture wouldn't happen (though I wouldn't rule out identitary backleash) but it would be a mutual influence IMHO (as I stated earlier, probably in military matters that were already quite hellenised in the western part of the Empire).
The changes would be far more important in Syria, Egypt and Mesopotamia, where IOTL hellenistic influence would obviously have an harder time imposing themselves. The lack of strong monarchic structures may lead Greece to remain a clusterfuck of city-states, vulnerable to raids and invasions (Celts, maybe Latins, other Greek states, etc.)
It doesn't mean that Western mediterranean basin would be the same : more likely less hellenized Carthage (something that could lead to less structural integrity of the Carthagian domination?). But for what matters Etrusceans, Gauls, Latins, Italian peoples...The difference, at least in a first time, wouldn't be obvious.
Persian rule was fairly benign; you paid your tribute and contributed troops and they largely left you alone. They didn't force their religion on others, even going so far as to help others build temples to their own gods ( see how the old testament waxes lyrically about the Persians after Cyrus built the second temple)
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Bible
It's really only in Greek sources that they appear as uncultured barbarians. (Shocking given the Persian wars - which were of course largely caused by Athens stirring up Ionia against them)
There was even a fair amount of cultural exchange with Greek art making its way into Persian hands etc.
I'd say the relative peace of Persian rule could even have stimulated more cultural achievements. If you stop the Greeks revolting and bringing down Persian vengeance - which was usually fairly harsh.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Bible
It's really only in Greek sources that they appear as uncultured barbarians. (Shocking given the Persian wars - which were of course largely caused by Athens stirring up Ionia against them)
There was even a fair amount of cultural exchange with Greek art making its way into Persian hands etc.
I'd say the relative peace of Persian rule could even have stimulated more cultural achievements. If you stop the Greeks revolting and bringing down Persian vengeance - which was usually fairly harsh.
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You're all focusing on the effect of Greek thought on Western Culture in regards to Greece itself. The greek philosophies won't be harmed much in this, yes. But that intellectual movement is going east instead of West. That leaves much of the West in the dark without some state to spread it far and with Persia holding Hellas that probably wouldn't happen.
Why so? The Greeks had already set up colonies throughout the western med before the Persian wars, those colonies are still going to be important rivals to any local powers (whether Etruscan, Roman or Carthaginian). And those colonies are still going to be trading and interacting with Greece itself.
With regards to the original question: an awful lot depends on if the Greeks become part of a Western Empire like Rome later on - that was the thing that really transmitted Greek art and thought in OTL. Without equivalents of Rome and Alexander's Empire we could see Greek culture relegated to a status like that of Egyptian culture - important, but not talked about so much.
The Persians, I think, would on balance be a positive thing for the development of Greek culture and art. IOTL it was during the Persian Empire period that the Ionian cities had their great cultural flowering, so I can see the same thing happening in a subject Greece.
fasquardon
Greek culture probably wouldn't have changed much. Somer eastern influences would have come earlier than OTL, but Greek culture would probably still flourish in Persian Greece.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
The Persian military might adopt the Greek phalanx formation and use it to bolster up their very poor infantry?
I think the Persians were already using the phalanx to a limited extent, what with their control of the Greek cities of Asia minor and of course Greek mercenaries (as we can see from Xenophon).
Didn't the Persian religion frown on slavery?
Now, theory and practice often are quite different, people come up with a hundred and one reasons to do what they want to do anyway, etc.
But, it is intriguing to think about a western culture with significantly less slavery
Now, theory and practice often are quite different, people come up with a hundred and one reasons to do what they want to do anyway, etc.
But, it is intriguing to think about a western culture with significantly less slavery
At least a persian held Greece will ensure that the Spartans may not be as glorified as OTL.
Or maybe yes, in a local revanchist way...
Or maybe yes, in a local revanchist way...
More or less, but it was never really imposed to submitted peoples (critically when victorious Medic Wars for Persians are going to be more of a vassalized status for Greece than "Persians take over everything". It didn't really prevented to have a Persian slavery to begin with, so when it'd come to far western vassals...
From what I recall Achaemenid Persia was fairly light on slaves. Though I recall the Sassanids were far more partial to it.
So I'd say that it was likely that intra-religious enslavement was prohibited, but slavery wasn't expressly forbidden completely.
It also depends a lot on how much Zoroastrian values penetrate into the 'western' culture of such a TL. If a Rome equivalent doesn't appear, or is as hostile to the east as our Rome, how far these ideas will spread would be interesting to see.
Well, they had slavery, but to a lesser extent than their neighbors. Also, they allowed their subject to practice slavery as long as they didn't enslave Persians, so I don't think that would change for the Greeks.
One may argue that it already happened to a certain point religiously, the debated iranian religion(s) influences on Judaism and perhaps Christianism later on, but it's another debate.
(It may also have influenced Buddhism and be a part of what would be Mahayana as well.)