West Mediterranean Thallasocracy

If a civilization as old as the Sumerians and Egyptians was to arise in the western fringes of the Mediterranean (Portugal, Morocco essentially), how would the Ancient world be changed.

From what I can gather, such a civilization would dominate the trade of tin into the Mediterranean and thus they would likely set up colonies in the British Isles and along the French and Spanish coast to maintain trade routes. They would also likely travel down the African coast due to their maritime nature. How long would it take before they accidentally (or purposely maybe) discover the Americas?

I could imagine the Berbers eventually developing their own kingdoms through the influence of this civilization (assuming it isn't in Morocco).

In summary, how would a civilization in Portugal/Morocco (founded in 4000-3000 BC) affect the rest of the world?
 

Deleted member 114175

"A Western Mediterranean thalassocracy, you say?"
- Hannibal Barca (allegedly)

CarthageMap.png
 

SwampTiger

Banned
Maybe the semi-mythical city/land of Tartessos was able to survive its collapse. It spreads its trade from Pictland and Eire south to Morocco, and eastward. It is mentioned in the Bible and in Minoan texts.
 
"A Western Mediterranean thalassocracy, you say?"
- Hannibal Barca (allegedly)

CarthageMap.png

Perhaps if you get a good enough steroids dose the Sea Peoples could be your choice.

Maybe the semi-mythical city/land of Tartessos was able to survive its collapse. It spreads its trade from Pictland and Eire south to Morocco, and eastward. It is mentioned in the Bible and in Minoan texts.

Massalia anyone?

All are plausible but I'm looking more for the effects of a thalassocracy that is as old as Ancient Egypt and Sumer. How would this effect the development of civilization in neighbouring regions since I suspect that having a civilization right next to the European tribes for thousands of more years will help civilize them earlier.
 
Well in effect, you're basically asking for a realustic basis for atlantis, arent you? In the same way the minoans and mykeneans were the basis/background for much of greek myth.
 
Yeah, essentially.
Well i do recall at least one group of people claiming that atlantis was in spain, just on the others side of Gibraltar straights (near Donna i think?)

Not really sure who's supposed to be living there, probably pre-IE peoples, so their language may or may not be related to the Basques. They could certainly have settlements up the iberian and french coasts before taking the hop across the channel to "domnonia", but i think making it to sub Saharan Africa would be a stretch for them, let alone the Americas
 

SwampTiger

Banned
Well i do recall at least one group of people claiming that atlantis was in spain, just on the others side of Gibraltar straights (near Donna i think?)

Not really sure who's supposed to be living there, probably pre-IE peoples, so their language may or may not be related to the Basques. They could certainly have settlements up the iberian and french coasts before taking the hop across the channel to "domnonia", but i think making it to sub Saharan Africa would be a stretch for them, let alone the Americas

This is Tartessos, recently conjectured to be at present day Huelva, north of Cadiz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos

It was present from the time of Minoan culture until Solomon. Some sort of decline resulted in Phoenicians taking over the trade connections.

If you postulate a change in the decline, with a greater urbanization from contacts east, you can have a growing civilization.
 
If a civilization as old as the Sumerians and Egyptians was to arise in the western fringes of the Mediterranean (Portugal, Morocco essentially), how would the Ancient world be changed.

From what I can gather, such a civilization would dominate the trade of tin into the Mediterranean and thus they would likely set up colonies in the British Isles and along the French and Spanish coast to maintain trade routes. They would also likely travel down the African coast due to their maritime nature. How long would it take before they accidentally (or purposely maybe) discover the Americas?

I could imagine the Berbers eventually developing their own kingdoms through the influence of this civilization (assuming it isn't in Morocco).

In summary, how would a civilization in Portugal/Morocco (founded in 4000-3000 BC) affect the rest of the world?

Morocco is quite a good base for a western Mediterranean thalassocracy. It has a good climate, plenty warm most of the year, thick snowfall in winter. Taking a coastal city like Casablanca, for example, the average high is 26 degrees C in the height of summer, and the coldest months are between December and February where average daily highest temperatures range from 17 degrees C to 19 degrees C. That's on the coast, but further inland, it is colder in winter, especially in the mountains at places like Ifrane, where heavy snowfall is common and ski resorts exist.

The landscape has plenty of natural woodland available for timber, with pine trees and lakes common in the mountains. With access to both the Mediterranean and the Atlantic, Morocco is well placed to act as a link between the ancient civilisations of the Near East, like Egypt and Persia, as well as the Greeks, Italic peoples and western Europe. If a civilisation in Morocco can control the straights of Gibraltar, it can levy taxes on ships coming and going, potentially leading to good profits.

The people living there at this time (and still today) are mostly Berber, an ethnic group that originates in the Near East and which is also genetically closely linked with the inhabitants of Spain since ancient times. They arrived sometime after the last Ice Age (around 10,000BC) and have always inhabited the area since. A fairly typical Mediterranean population group, they would be well placed to develop agriculture and trade and go on to dominate the area.

The only slight downside with Morocco is its geographical distance from the centre of ancient civilisation, in the Fertile Crescent region (Iraq/Iran through Anatolia and Syria to Egypt). This geographical distance may not help the spread of technology in earliest times. On the other hand, agriculture arose independently in several places in antiquity, including the Indus, Mesoamerica, China, as well as the famous examples in the Nile and the Mesopotamia. So it's not out of the question it could arise here too, possibly around the river Sebou, which supports irrigation in Morocco's most fertile region. There are accounts from antiquity of the extreme abundance of wild animals and flora here, of every imaginable variety. The north African forest elephant lived here in antiquity, as did the famous Barbary lion and many other species.

Morocco is also reasonably safe from attack, as the only threat as long as they control the coasts would be to the east, from other, similar tribes located nearby along the coast. This means they would usually only have to defend from a single direction, and if they can extend their power some way to the east, they might find themselves virtually unchallenged. A promising base for an empire, indeed.
 
See, one aspect of this I think that is important is that you need markets in and around the Western Med and Atlantic for such a force to really emerge and flourish. Which means you need a more economically powerful British Isles, a more economically engaged Gaul, a strong SW Spain, Morocco, and then wherever this trade economy comes from.

Which really, IMO - comes down to an incredibly early development of large-cargo Ocean-Going ships. Now we have proof of hide-ships all the way back to Skara Brae prominence time periods here. Literally the Neolithic.

Excluding agriculture, and instead focusing on the sea for food could be an approach, meaning that the PoD likely focuses around a massively more advanced ship building skill set than there was historically.

Personally I'd have a PoD centred around improved woodworking in the British Isles, focusing on larger projects to enable larger buildings, improved drainage, and larger ship building - that would create more trade partners and technologies in the Atlantic, giving the potential markets for Mediterranean goods, and increasing the production of Atlantic goods.
 
Linking the Canaries with the rest of the world early on would be very interesting. Especially since this would change the very nature of the settlement of the Canaries since the islands weren't settled until 1000-500 BC. Madeira and the Azores might be settled by offshoots of the Canarian civilisation, and if they get better boats, they could possibly manage to establish regular trade with West Africa (and settle Cape Verde in the process). And if that happens, it's only a matter of time before they find Brazil...
 
Sounds a lot like Tartessos, yes.

Well i do recall at least one group of people claiming that atlantis was in spain, just on the others side of Gibraltar straights (near Donna i think?)

Not really sure who's supposed to be living there, probably pre-IE peoples, so their language may or may not be related to the Basques. They could certainly have settlements up the iberian and french coasts before taking the hop across the channel to "domnonia", but i think making it to sub Saharan Africa would be a stretch for them, let alone the Americas

I think the Basque connection is the best, although I have seen people claim it was an early Celtic. The area was probably where the Bell Beakers started from. They were a trading network spreading northwards and eastwards along the Atlantic coast and the European rivers with little to no replacement of people.

Except when they got to the British Isles about 2500 BC they completely wiped out the previous inhabitants. That lot looked about like a Sardinian with one Norwegian grandparent.

Tartessos seems to have done a lot of metal trade, possibly involving Corwall. Possibly they were connected with the old Sardinians, in which case yes, pre-IE power. They were a bit late for the purpose though, first millenium BC.

What you'd need is a more centralized Bell Beaker culture.
 
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