West German Japan

[Landshark]

From the late 50's to the fall of the wall West Germany was a major military player in the Cold War in Europe. In the 80's it had the largest and most powerful army in Nato outside of the USA and it's armoured forces were considered among the best in the world.

On the other side of the world Japan had nothing similar. While Germany even revived the Luftwaffe, the airforce of National Socialism, Japan didn't even have an army, navy or airforce, only "Self Defence Forces".

So how can Japan become as big a player in the Cold War military game as Germany? Admittedly the situations in Asia and Europe are considerably different. Germany was the front line in the Cold War with a hugely powerful Soviet army actually sitting on (East) German soil. Japan is an island nation and China is even today nowhere near as militarily powerful as the Soviet Union of twenty years ago.

The two countries also have considerable similarities. They are the second and third largest economies in the world, they both have a large and capable manufacturing sector, yet while the Leopard I tank is used by a dozen nations worldwide and the G3 rifle second only to the FN FAL Japan exports no armaments of any kind and until the 90's Japanese weapons were distinctly less advanced compared to those of other countries.

So how can Japan resemble Germany more in military and political terms during the Cold War?

 

[zoomar]

West Germany's military was totally and completely constrained by its role in the NATO alliance - plus, German society has been so thoroughly de-militarized by the western allies and later the Social Democrats that the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe were filled by people who had few nationalist leanings and saw their (conscript) services part of a broader European and Atlantic defense system. Who really knows how this non-nationalist national army would have fared in the event of a Soviet Invasion? One thing we know for sure, not one of those Leopard tanks could have done anything without the aproval of the US, UK, and France.

Although in a one-sided bilateral treaty with the US, Japan was not part of anything remotely equivalent to NATO. Yet, the Self Defense Forces were (and still are) quite capable. The JMSDF was by the mid-1980's one of the four or five largest and most technologically capable navies in the world. The "air force" and "army" were also fully modern. Also, one wonders if the Japanese military establishment and people were ever as fully indoctrinated by the victorious allies as was Germany's, even with their so-called pacifist constitution. If Japan ever wanted to become more active militarily, the only thing stopping that would be internal politics and economic constraints, not an alliance structure established in part to control Japanes ambitions.

 

[Valamyr]

I wasnt aware the west german military was that strong.

What the hell happens if West Germany pulls out from NATO then? I mean of course, past the point where they were once again "respectable" and effectively independent, in the 80s, or so.

There are NATO nukes based in Germany.

You could imagine endless scenarios, from a clash with the west to the forceful reconquest of an east germany not backed by the USSR, to the reconquest of the official 1937 borders that had been promised Germany.

A Non-NATO 1990 Germany with its 1937 borders and a few nuclear bombs wishing to re-incorporate Austria sounds kind of silly. But this whole "Germany is peaceful now!" is mostly for convenience, any country who wants to become nationalistic can do so in short order.

Aside from that, it would be kind of funny to see the west go "GAH! Not AGAIN?!?"

 

[zoomar]

Aside from that, it would be kind of funny to see the west go "GAH! Not AGAIN?!?"

And that, actually, is the real reason for West German membership in NATO, not because the west needed German assistance to protect France from a Soviet Invasion.

 

[Steffen]

I wasnt aware the west german military was that strong.

What the hell happens if West Germany pulls out from NATO then? I mean of course, past the point where they were once again "respectable" and effectively independent, in the 80s, or so.

There are NATO nukes based in Germany.

You could imagine endless scenarios, from a clash with the west to the forceful reconquest of an east germany not backed by the USSR, to the reconquest of the official 1937 borders that had been promised Germany.

A Non-NATO 1990 Germany with its 1937 borders and a few nuclear bombs wishing to re-incorporate Austria sounds kind of silly. But this whole "Germany is peaceful now!" is mostly for convenience, any country who wants to become nationalistic can do so in short order.

Aside from that, it would be kind of funny to see the west go "GAH! Not AGAIN?!?"

Ah, no, the germany is peaceful now has become something of a religion and currently evolves to a kind of hystercal pacifism

 

[zoomar]

Ah, no, the germany is peaceful now has become something of a religion and currently evolves to a kind of hystercal pacifism

Yes, you have been ruined

 

[kek]

One other thing is that (West) Germany actually owned up to what they did in WW2, so its neighbors were not too upset about Germany rearming itself - whatever manner and form that rearmament may be. Japan, AFAIK, even now, as not fully owned up to its acts in WW2 and before, so they are going to get some serious objections from neigboring nations such as the Chinese, the Koreans, Filipinos, etc. You'll have to overcome that before Japan become a more significant player in COld War military chess games.

 

[Steffen]

well, with islands, you always draw "cleaner" borders.

can anyone imagine that that Japan get´s partitioned between the two super powers after ww2 like germany and austria?

alrtnatively, nationalist china maintains a large foothold on the mainland. so japan is even more important as a staging area.