West German Buccaneers and Lightnings?

[Riain]

I've seen it mentioned that West Germany looked at both the Lightning and Buccaneer, but details on either deal are scarce. Does anyone know anything about them, numbers, dates, roles, bases etc?

About all I know is the West Germans were interested in the SR177 until late 57 then changed their requirements, causing the SR177 to be cancelled. They then looked at the Lightning but the British Government representative was telling them not to buy it. They ended up buy F104G, which was facilitated to an extent by some bribery, but not enough that this was the only reason the F104G was selected.

What would be the impact of West Germany buying the Lightning and Buccaneer?

 

[historyfool]

Never heard that these two were considered so I can´t comment on that. On the reasons for choosing the F-104:
The Luftwaffe wanted an interceptor with Mach 2 and high climb rate for catching the M-50, capable of starting from short runways and preferred a single engine craft. It also wanted a fighter bomber, and budget constrains meant it had to be the same plane.
The defense minister wanted a nuclear weapon carrier with long range.
Also starting from an existing airframe was preferred for fast deployement

The SR177 of course was not far enough in development
The Mirage was in many ways the best suited for the requirements, but the French were not willing to have German control over some of their nuclear weapons.
That nuclear requirement left the US models (a reason for the interest in the F/A18 today btw) and here ultimately the F-104 was chosen, although not filling all requirements.

The reasons for wanting a single-engine craft are imo a bit debateable, so maybe could be dropped. I don´t know enough about nuclear policies of the day to decide whether that would allow for a British craft though or simply for different US models to enter the competition.

 

[Palantir]

That nuclear requirement left the US models (a reason for the interest in the F/A18 today btw) and here ultimately the F-104 was chosen, although not filling all requirements.

Agree. We all focus on the bribe scandal, and not on the nuclear requirement. Still the F-104G was an interceptor used in a strike role.

The Mirage was in many ways the best suited for the requirements, but the French were not willing to have German control over some of their nuclear weapons.

That's more that France didn't have nuclear weapons to spare in that time frame. But yeah, they didn't have the political will to do nuclear sharing with Germany in the late 50's early 60's.

What would be the impact of West Germany buying the Lightning and Buccaneer?

1. I assume that the UK, the US and Germany will need some agreement on nuclear sharing.
2. The UK will have to make important technology transfers, but their aircraft industry have secured the 1st place in Europe until the 70's and the replacement aircraft(s).
3. Germany has now 2 specialized and bi-motor aircrafts. It will reduce the accident rate (and the death rate) in the Luftwaffe, and it's effectiveness. But it will increase the costs of procurement and of operation for them.
4. Germany was the first big export customer for the F-104. And they lobbied hard for it around the World after their choice. If the Germans choose a combination of the Lightning and Buccaneer, Lockheed won't sell nearly as much (and won't become the giant we know).
5. The West will not be nearly as standardized on the F-104 as OTL. I can see Japan, Norway and Denmark still buying F-104, but Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy and Canada are potential exports for the UK. Other historical F-104 operators like Greece and Turkey got theirs thru NATO assistance mostly, so possibly second hand US F-104. This situation might open more markets than OTL for the Mirage III.

 

[naraic]

Never heard that these two were considered

Every plane that flies is considered at some level. The level of consideration is sometimes very low but everything would be considered.

Whether these two were considered at a serious level is not something I am certain of.

 

[The Wooksta!]

I heard whisper that the French put the block on Germany getting Lightning as they didn't want the Germans to have supersonic capability.

 

[historyfool]

I heard whisper that the French put the block on Germany getting Lightning as they didn't want the Germans to have supersonic capability.

That does not make a lot of sense, considering that every other entry into the competition resulting in the Starfighter-purchase was supersonic, including the French one. Given that one major expected task was intercepting Soviet supersonic bombers a subsonic fighter was not really an option.

 

[Bougnas]

The choice of the F-104G over the Mirage III had more to do with the latter barely entering testing (and not in a nuclear strike version yet) and not being proven, while at least Lockheed could bring up the short service of the F-104 in the USAF even if the F-104G was in reality quite a bit different in both role and performance. The German strike capability with a Mirage III would still have been independent from the French nuclear apparatus by using US nuclear bombs so this was hardly an argument against the Mirage. If anything the French were upset that the now friendly Germans refused their product, even if it was hardly surprising...

The only feasible American alternatives to the F-104 for this role would either have been the NA F-107 although unlikely (I think it would have been a bit more multirole than the F-105), or the F-12F Super Tiger, which could possibly have been safer at low altitude than the F-104 and better in some respects although the inexperience of the Luftwaffe itself had a lot to do with the high accident rate of the F-104 there. The F-12F however was just as unproven and Grumman was not as commercially savvy as Lockheed.

 

[CV12Hornet]

I've seen it mentioned that West Germany looked at both the Lightning and Buccaneer, but details on either deal are scarce. Does anyone know anything about them, numbers, dates, roles, bases etc?

About all I know is the West Germans were interested in the SR177 until late 57 then changed their requirements, causing the SR177 to be cancelled. They then looked at the Lightning but the British Government representative was telling them not to buy it. They ended up buy F104G, which was facilitated to an extent by some bribery, but not enough that this was the only reason the F104G was selected.

What would be the impact of West Germany buying the Lightning and Buccaneer?

The Buccaneer was, as I mentioned over in the Buccaneer thread, intended for the Marineflieger as a maritime strike aircraft, and is at least somewhat separate from the Luftwaffe requirements, with commonality with the Luftwaffe winning out over the greater capability of the Phantom and Buccaneer. Of the two, this is the easier to butterfly; the Marineflieger was established and trained by the Royal Navy, making the Buccaneer a natural fit, and Germany ended up buying more Starfighters than they could produce, lending an industrial argument. The Marineflieger ended up buying 146 F-104Gs and 27 RF-104Gs; the Buccaneer is probably more expensive and would lead to fewer aircraft.

Looking at the Lightning, the primary obstacles are budget and the fighter-bomber requirement. English Electric could probably modify the Lightning for at least some strike capability if they have to, but the budget problem is likely to be a killer. The Lightning, for all its virtues, is a fairly sophisticated and expensive aircraft.

 

[Bougnas]

Why did the British even tell Germany not to buy the Lightning? This seems somewhat counter-intuitive to kill a potential deal this way.

 

[The Wooksta!]

BAC did develop Lightning with strike capability for the Saudis.

 

[Riain]

Never heard that these two were considered so I can´t comment on that. On the reasons for choosing the F-104:
The Luftwaffe wanted an interceptor with Mach 2 and high climb rate for catching the M-50, capable of starting from short runways and preferred a single engine craft.

This would explain the interest in the SR177 jet-rocket interceptor. The Buccaneer was considered for a separate requirement for anti-shipping strikes in the Baltic for the WG Navy.

It also wanted a fighter bomber,

What I've read on the SR177 is that in late 57 while the SR177 was on life support the West Germans changed their requirement from interceptor to strike-fighter and pulled out of the SR177 in December 1957.

Does this sound right, a switch of interceptor to strike-fighter in late 57, or were the 2 requirements overlapping?

budget constrains meant it had to be the same plane.
The defense minister wanted a nuclear weapon carrier with long range.
Also starting from an existing airframe was preferred for fast deployement

The SR177 of course was not far enough in development
The Mirage was in many ways the best suited for the requirements, but the French were not willing to have German control over some of their nuclear weapons.
That nuclear requirement left the US models (a reason for the interest in the F/A18 today btw) and here ultimately the F-104 was chosen, although not filling all requirements.

The reasons for wanting a single-engine craft are imo a bit debateable, so maybe could be dropped. I don´t know enough about nuclear policies of the day to decide whether that would allow for a British craft though or simply for different US models to enter the competition.

By the late 50s the F104 had been produced and was in limited USAF service in the interceptor-fighter A and the fighter-bomber C variants, so could be considered a mature aircraft whereas the Lightning F1 didn't enter squadrons service until late 1959 and the ground attack modifications were not developed. Now of course all of this could be overcome, and I'd suggest that the Lightning might be in front of the Mirage III from a development point of view but political factors like cost and home government support would be against it.

 

[Riain]

Agree. We all focus on the bribe scandal, and not on the nuclear requirement. Still the F-104G was an interceptor used in a strike role.


That's more that France didn't have nuclear weapons to spare in that time frame. But yeah, they didn't have the political will to do nuclear sharing with Germany in the late 50's early 60's.

1. I assume that the UK, the US and Germany will need some agreement on nuclear sharing.
2. The UK will have to make important technology transfers, but their aircraft industry have secured the 1st place in Europe until the 70's and the replacement aircraft(s).
3. Germany has now 2 specialized and bi-motor aircrafts. It will reduce the accident rate (and the death rate) in the Luftwaffe, and it's effectiveness. But it will increase the costs of procurement and of operation for them.
4. Germany was the first big export customer for the F-104. And they lobbied hard for it around the World after their choice. If the Germans choose a combination of the Lightning and Buccaneer, Lockheed won't sell nearly as much (and won't become the giant we know).
5. The West will not be nearly as standardized on the F-104 as OTL. I can see Japan, Norway and Denmark still buying F-104, but Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy and Canada are potential exports for the UK. Other historical F-104 operators like Greece and Turkey got theirs thru NATO assistance mostly, so possibly second hand US F-104. This situation might open more markets than OTL for the Mirage III.

The F104G was a competitive aircraft in its own right, the bribes only made it more so, you can't make a massive public funds decision on bribe alone otherwise it would be too obvious.

The nuclear thing would be US nukes only, they started allowing Britain to use dual-key nukes from V-bombers in 1955 and this agreement was extended throughout NATO by the 60s. The Lightning didn't use dual-key nukes but making an aircraft nuclear capable isn't that difficult.

 

[Riain]

The Buccaneer was, as I mentioned over in the Buccaneer thread, intended for the Marineflieger as a maritime strike aircraft, and is at least somewhat separate from the Luftwaffe requirements, with commonality with the Luftwaffe winning out over the greater capability of the Phantom and Buccaneer. Of the two, this is the easier to butterfly; the Marineflieger was established and trained by the Royal Navy, making the Buccaneer a natural fit, and Germany ended up buying more Starfighters than they could produce, lending an industrial argument. The Marineflieger ended up buying 146 F-104Gs and 27 RF-104Gs; the Buccaneer is probably more expensive and would lead to fewer aircraft.

Looking at the Lightning, the primary obstacles are budget and the fighter-bomber requirement. English Electric could probably modify the Lightning for at least some strike capability if they have to, but the budget problem is likely to be a killer. The Lightning, for all its virtues, is a fairly sophisticated and expensive aircraft.

I agree, the Luftwaffe could choose the F104G while the Marineflieger could choose the Buccaneer. By 1873 the Buccaneer could use the Kommoran AShM, which might make it attractive to the RN/RAF for it's Buccaneer fleet.

 

[RandomChance]

By 1873 the Buccaneer could use the Kommoran AShM,

I now have visions of 19th century pirates packing missiles...
Given the Buccaneer was the RN’s answer to a Soviet Cruiser panic, so as a Marineflieger weapon in the Baltic seems a good match.

 

[Riain]

Why did the British even tell Germany not to buy the Lightning? This seems somewhat counter-intuitive to kill a potential deal this way.

It was British Government policy between April 1957 and about 1960 that manned combat aircraft were obsolescent, and the Lightning was a transition aircraft to get the RAF from where it was in 1957 to the missile-only future by the late 60s. The Government official was following the Government decision, maybe taking it too far in the circumstances, but still that was what the responsible Minister had decided and tabled in Parliament.

This is the real Sandys legacy, not cancelling this or that project. but saying that in 15 years time there would be no manned combat aircraft. At a stroke that made Britain a country not to buy aircraft from because over time anything you bought would not be supported.

 

[Riain]

I now have visions of 19th century pirates packing missiles...
Given the Buccaneer was the RN’s answer to a Soviet Cruiser panic, so as a Marineflieger weapon in the Baltic seems a good match.

Yes, it would even follow up a Kommoran strike with a bomb attack at a reasonable range. In fact the range of the Buccaneer over the F104G would be an asset, it could fly right u into the Gulf of Riga etc to deliver its attacks.

 

[Anderman]

Yes, it would even follow up a Kommoran strike with a bomb attack at a reasonable range. In fact the range of the Buccaneer over the F104G would be an asset, it could fly right u into the Gulf of Riga etc to deliver its attacks.

Actual the range of the Buccaneer could be a problem because some critics would ask it would be enough to attac Moscow.

 

[iron]

I don't see it happening.
The Germans were hell bent on procuring a singular platform that could meet all of the anticipated taskings.
In this regard?
At the time there was no better option than the F-104G.

It (nominally) could do it all. Some roles better than others...point taken.
This was a far different world at the time and dodgy suggestions (fueled by a copious amount of hindsight) should really be taken under advisement...IMO.
Can you even imagine how messed up the logistical tail would be if your suggestion was to be implemented?
Shit breaks...call Britain.
"Sorry Chaps but we're having problems of our own".
So what does Germany do? Set up tooling to manufacture spares?
With the 104G, they already had an indigenous production capability to deal with the "problems".
Despite all of the "bribe of the century" horseshit? The Germans made the right decision, (IMO) YMMV

 

[Riain]

I don't see it happening.
The Germans were hell bent on procuring a singular platform that could meet all of the anticipated taskings.
In this regard?
At the time there was no better option than the F-104G.

It (nominally) could do it all. Some roles better than others...point taken.
This was a far different world at the time and dodgy suggestions (fueled by a copious amount of hindsight) should really be taken under advisement...IMO.
Can you even imagine how messed up the logistical tail would be if your suggestion was to be implemented?
Shit breaks...call Britain.
"Sorry Chaps but we're having problems of our own".
So what does Germany do? Set up tooling to manufacture spares?
With the 104G, they already had an indigenous production capability to deal with the "problems".
Despite all of the "bribe of the century" horseshit? The Germans made the right decision, (IMO) YMMV

I don't know what the deals were, so don't know how seriously they were evaluated. That the Germans were 'hell bent' on a single aircraft for both the Luftwaffe and Marineflieger is new, although it does make sense.

I suspect it was more than a tick and flick for the Luftwaffe as they expressed an interest in both the SR.177 then the Lightning, and apparently with the SR.177 wanted a Government to Government arrangements rather than deal directly with Saunders Roe. This suggests more that a cursory interest.

I don't know anything about the Buccaneer, but think maybe if the West German were looking at the SR.177 and Lightning they also needed the Buccaneer for the Navy.

What is wrong with the British logistical tail? Britain was an experienced arms supplier in the late 50s, whose products like Canberra, Hunter, Centurion and warships had sold widely. This reputation may have diminished during the 60s but Britain was still a significant arms supplier, so I can't imagine the support arrangements being too horrific.

 

[marathag]

or the F-12F Super Tiger, which could possibly have been safer at low altitude than the F-104 and better in some respects although the inexperience of the Luftwaffe itself had a lot to do with the high accident rate of the F-104 there. The F-12F however was just as unproven and Grumman was not as commercially savvy as Lockheed.

you mean willing to Bribe, rather than provide the superior product