Wehrmacht Takes Tula: Effects?

I would like know what would happen if during the course of Operation Barbarossa, the Wehrmacht takes Tula, allowing for the southern pincer around Moscow to advance further.

The only problem I see is that the Germans didn't have enough infantry and artillery to take Tula, and good infantry and artillery couldn't just be created from thin air. Would transferring 3-5 infantry divisions from other Army Groups be feasible? Would it have too much of an effect on the other fronts?

Also, what would happen to Moscow if Tula and Kolmna fell? Would the Soviet winter counteroffensive be less focused and more confused? Would the Germans be in a better position to attack Moscow in the spring? Would the Germans be worse off in the long term due to overextension?
 
Unlike Alexander I, Stalin can't afford to withdraw from Moscow as part of "Scortched Earth." For one thing, the capital is there rather than Lenningrad this time. For another, the entire rail and oil pipline nets were focused there, as were the power grid, and the radio and telephone systems. If Moscow is taken, or even merely cut off, all coordination between Soviet forces breaks down and regardless of any sort of formal surrender by anyone in the center, any Red Army forces left in the field rapidly become indistinguishable from brigands.
 
The Nazis have no chance to win Operation Typhoon, by the time they've turned to trying to capture Soviet cities as a means to defeat the Soviet Union their strategic concept has failed. If they somehow extend their southern salient further, that just worsens the impact of Zhukov's assault, as the Nazis were using tanks and air power against all-infantry formations IOTL and failed to capture Moscow, more tanks and more air power won't do any more than what the OTL one did.
 
I don't expect the Germans to take Moscow, but I suspect the Soviet Winter Offensive is going to make less progress and result in more casualties for the Russians since now, they'll have to deal with both pincers in the vicinity of Moscow.

The problem I can see for the Germans is that their offensive in 1942 would probably target Moscow, with predictable results.
 
I don't expect the Germans to take Moscow, but I suspect the Soviet Winter Offensive is going to make less progress and result in more casualties for the Russians since now, they'll have to deal with both pincers in the vicinity of Moscow.

The problem I can see for the Germans is that their offensive in 1942 would probably target Moscow, with predictable results.

The Red Army dealt with both pincers anyways, and gave the 2nd Panzer Army quite the run for its money. With it even more overextended and severely weakened from fighting around Tula it could feasibly suffer some minor divisional level encirclement and major losses compared to OTL.
 
A 'lucky' coup de main of Tula in October- is it doable? I guess if they take it, their rear is pretty much unguarded at that point.

So make it October 25. 1.5 mobile divisions are (loosely) surrounded inside Tula, while half of the 2nd Pz army struggles through the mud to reconnect, which it manages to do before the ground refreezes in early November.

Immediate change? Guderian isn't trying to envelop Tula any more, so that's a lot of saved time and effort. Any significant terrain obstacles before the Oka? Otherwise that's as far as he likely gets before the counterattack. Would that really alter the Soviet counterattack deployment much? Does it mean the Soviets abandon Kaluga voluntarily (which front/army at Kaluga)?

So say the Germans manage to wear themselves out about as much as OTL, maybe inflicting a smidgen more damage on the Soviet 50th army. The real difference is they get to use Tula as a supply point and an anchor in the line, at least until they abandon it.
 
Unlike Alexander I, Stalin can't afford to withdraw from Moscow as part of "Scortched Earth." For one thing, the capital is there rather than Lenningrad this time. For another, the entire rail and oil pipline nets were focused there, as were the power grid, and the radio and telephone systems. If Moscow is taken, or even merely cut off, all coordination between Soviet forces breaks down and regardless of any sort of formal surrender by anyone in the center, any Red Army forces left in the field rapidly become indistinguishable from brigands.

No, just no. For one Moscow isn't going to be like Kiev, any German attack on Moscow will have far more in common with Lenningrad or dare I say it Stalingrad and while it would cause logistical nightmares for the Russians to have Moscow cut off the Germans would be in even more trouble. If you hypothetically magicked 2 full strength Panzer Divisions to the front line on the 5th of December it wouldn't fix the German problem, in fact it would make them worse.

Logistics. The Germans had advanced 1000 miles from their jumping off points in Poland, every step of the way the Soviet transport net (never particularly good) had been trashed, couple that with winter and the Germans couldn't even keep the massively understrength formations they had in OTL supplied with essentials like fuel and ammunition. More troops isn't the answer, if an ASB wanted to help the Germans take Moscow they'd provide them with 2000 Studebaker US6 trucks with sufficient crews and spare parts to keep them running. With that they could actually supply their OTL forces and keep on advancing.
 
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The are lots of little PODs that the German could do better in Typhoon:

1) Kluge's army is more active after the initial stages of Typhoon
2) The German stop attacking Leningrad a day or two earlier leaving more armor available for Typhoon
3) Kessering and his air group are not withdrawn to the med so early
4) A couple of the snow equipped mountain divisions doing nothing in Norway are moved here
5) Better supply arrangments (maybe just a capable guy corrdinating the rail lines)
6) The Germans diverted forces to take places like Kursk and Kalinin which might have driven more directly torward Moscow

If one or more of the above happened, Tula might get taken and/or the German might get closer to Moscow.

Worst case for the Russians is they have to consume some reserves that were going to get used in their counter attacks meaning the winter counter offensive does less well.

Best case for the Russians the Germans overextend themselves more and the Winter counter offensive does better.

Hitler was cautious about the whole Moscow/Typhoon thing, perhaps a case where his intuition was correct, it would have been better to just halt before Typhoon, resist soviet counterattacks, rest for the winter and if you had to attack some where, attack along the Volkov front to take (and hold) Volkov and Tikvin to make complete the seige of Leningrad which might really then completely starve to death over the winter.
 
Got to disagree, sending more troops isn't the answer. They couldn't supply the one's they had in OTL, more would only make it worse. While doing a better job of managing the logistics might help they didn't do that bad a job in OTL and no staff officer, no matter how brilliant can wave a magic wand and repair the thousands of miles of rail that was destroyed/damaged at this point.

What Germany needs to do is bring forward their rail net restoration program they did in OTL after Typhoon. They pulled infantry divisions out of the frontline and along with refitting sent them off to clear and repair the rail net. That would be a much better use for those Norwegian Divisions. By doing that earlier you could boost the success of Op Typhoon without sending a single additional soldier simply because they would have sufficient fuel and ammunition. Hell they might even be able to get them winter gear! Of course pulling 5 or 6 divisions out of the line in September is going to require cancelling one of the other offensives going on at this point.
 
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What Germany needs to do is bring forward their rail net restoration program they did in OTL after Typhoon. They pulled infantry divisions out of the frontline and along with refitting sent them off to clear and repair the rail net. That would be a much better use for those Norwegian Divisions. By doing that earlier you could boost the success of Op Typhoon without sending a single additional soldier simply because they would have sufficient fuel and ammunition. Hell they might even be able to get them winter gear! Of course pulling 5 or 6 divisions out of the line in September is going to require cancelling one of the other offensives going on at this point.

Good points. However I thought the OTL lack of winter clothing was do to rail congestion as far back as Poland which was more due to politics/mismanagment. But certainly if you can convert the rails and rebuild bridges quicker and have rail heads closer to the front it would help supply instead of trucking it all that extra way.
 
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