Wehrmacht invades USSR Early,afer Soviet debacle in Winter War in Finland

The Finnish war killed a couple hundred thousand Soviet solders. In comparison, between June and December 1941 the Red Army lost 5 million irrecoverable losses out of pre-war army of 5 million, with millions more wounded, but still deployed over 6 million men in December 1941.

Losses mean absolutely nothing at this stage.
 
Sorry for bursting your bubble:

The Soviets had 411 T–28 tanks when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941.[3](p108) A large majority of these were lost during the first two months of the invasion, many of them abandoned after mechanical breakdown. Not in their thousands.

also:
In some key weapons systems, however, the Soviet numerical advantage was considerable. In tanks, for example, the Red Army had a large quantitative superiority. It possessed 23,106 tanks,[73] of which about 12,782 were in the five Western Military Districts (three of which directly faced the German invasion front). However, maintenance and readiness standards were very poor; ammunition and radios were in short supply, and many units lacked the trucks needed to carry supplies.

vs

The German Wehrmacht had about 5,200 tanks overall, of which 3,350 were committed to the invasion. This yields a balance of immediately available tanks of about 4:1 in the Red Army's favor. The most advanced Soviet tank models, however, the T-34 and KV-1, were not available in large numbers early in the war, and only accounted for 7.2% of the total Soviet tank force.
The Soviet numerical advantage in heavy equipment was also more than offset by the greatly superior training and readiness of German forces.

So, take your pick.

If you have bad equipment but a lot, it does not necessarily mean an advantage. Saddam found that out - T55 vs Abrams.

The air force was in a similar bad state in 1940 and 1941. The pures ahd made a meal of out VVS.


The tanks which USSR had were the BT series:

During the Second World War, BT-5 and BT-7 tanks were used in the 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland, and in large numbers in the battles of 1941 - during which thousands were abandoned or destroyed.

THAT's where your thousands of tanks come from.

Ivan
 
I found this as well:

Strength of Panzer Units - Operation Barbarossa - June 22, 1941
Unit
PzKpfw I
PzKpfw II
PzKpfw III (37mm)
PzKpfw III (50mm)
PzKpfw IV
PzKpfw 35(t) incl. PzBef
PzKpfw 38(t) incl. PzBef
PzBef
Flammpanzer
Captured Tanks
Total
1st Pz Div

43

71
20


11


145
3rd Pz Div

58
29
81
32


15


215
4th Pz Div

33
31
74
20


8


166
6th Pz Div

47


30
160

8


245
7th Pz Div

53


30

174
8


265
8th Pz Div

49


30

125
8


212
9th Pz Div
8
32
11
60
20


12


143
10th Pz Div

45

105
20


12


182
11th Pz Div

44
24
47
20


8


143
12th Pz Div
40
33


30

117



293
13th Pz Div

45
27
44
20


13


149
14th Pz Div

45
15
56
20


11


147
16th Pz Div

45
23
48
20


10


146
17th Pz Div
12
44

106
30


10


202
18th Pz Div
6
50
99
15
36


12


218
19th Pz Div
42
35


30

121



228
20th Pz Div
44
31


31

123



229
Pz.Abt.211
Captured French Tanks - NO DATA

Pz.Abt.z.b.V.40
NO DATA

Pz.Abt.(F) 102
Captured Tanks / Flammpanzers - NO DATA

Pz.Abt.(F) 101

25
5



1
42

73
Pz.Abt.(F) 100

25
5



1
42
9
82

152
782
269
707
439
160
660
146
84
9
3483
the source is: www.achtungpanzer.com

Not sure how reliable, though



 
Sorry, that did not work.

The conclusions is:

Pz1: 152
Pz II: 782
Pz III (37 mm): 269
Pz III (50 mm): 707
Pz iV: 439
Pz 35: 160
Pz 38: 660
PzBef: 145
Flammenpanzer: 84
Captured: 9
Total: 3,483

Ivan
 

gaijin

Banned
The only thing that matters is logistics and the geras were much much weaker in that sense in 1940. Everything else doent really matter at all.
modern wars are won by logistics, much more than tactics , sor materiel.
 
We are. The 1941 numbers are the one's I could find.

We can extrapolate some of it and take into account the facts, in the likes of: no T34 in 1940, etc.

The other factors are valid in 1940 as well: Germany: better tactics, Purges biting even harder, etc etc

Ivan
 
Yes, I am aware of the importance of logistics.

Of course an Abrams cannot work in isolation. The anlogy was more in the sense of quantity vs quality (T-55 vs Abrams: Saddam, 1991).

That one, in this scenario, cuts boths ways:

Germany had to rely on French and captured british transport in 1941. USSR transport was not great either. LL had not kicked in, etc.

So, it is really saying, both were handicapped in that department. Who had the worst deal there in 1940?

See my previous post on that question as well:

However, Germany, with no invasion of France and thereby no major losses in 1940 would be a different beast. That must then be put in perspective of no French booty either.

How would that come out:

Transport?
Luftwaffe losses
Tanks
Tactics refined?
Personnel losses
etc

USSR: More or less the same type of equation.

Transport?
Tanks (T-34 not there yet)
personnel after Finland
Purges?
Tactics?

That is really the question, I believe.
 
Alright, but you're citing German TOE's from 1941; for the invasion if France, around which this thread is talking about, the Germans had many hundreds fewer panzer IIIs and IVs. The majority of their tanks in 1939 and 1940 were still Panzer Is and IIs.

The purges woud bite hard, but as I stated earlier, the Red Arny only began deploying en masse into the border regions in 1941. Thus if the Germans invade in 1940 they will not, as IOTL, destroy the pre-war Red Army along the border.
 
Yes, Julian. 1940 was Pz I and II. I fully agree there. 1940 in Russia against BT series would have been more evenly matched. How much is the question.

That's where tactics and command structure also comes in.

:::

The Panzerwaffe had 2636 German tanks on 10th May 1940 :

[Table giving the tank strength of the different Panzerdivisionen and the repartition of the different tanks]

These 2636 tanks include 965 ones (37%) armed with a 3.7cm or 7.5cm gun. Not counting here the additional 99 Panzerjäger I and 24 StuG A. Which leads to 2759 AFVs and 1088 ones (39%) armed with a 3.7cm, 4.7cm or 7.5cm gun.

Picked from axis history.

I can't find the exact strength. Carl to the rescue, please?

Ivan
 
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