Weber's Germany: The Veterinarian Totalitarian

[Cregan]

I don't want Stalin to win.

But I want the Reich to fall too.

 

[Zagan]

actually @Tom Colton has already established that the Soviet's invade Germany in the future (IIRC it's the main reason why Syria doesn't get any help against Britain once Japan is dealt with)

Yes, but successfully? With debellatio as in OTL? We don't know yet.

I don't want Stalin to win.

But I want the Reich to fall too.

This is a conundrum.

 

[Tsar of New Zealand]

I don't want Stalin to win.

But I want the Reich to fall too.

Hell, that's OTL too! Nice to have these elements of verisimilitude, ain't it?

 

[generalurist]

Unless Stalin the Dumbshit doesn't bother at all to keep up with German weapons development, I'm confident that the USSR can at least make some headway. Depends on how much help the western powers provide, but remember that in OTL the USSR was able to counter-attack the Reich despite the latter holding an India-sized chunk of the country for over a year.

 

[Tom Colton]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! Let me answer these in turn.

Re: Deportees

Makes me think of the "Colonies" from The Handmaid's Tale. Are POW's and other undesirables being shipped here also?

Gays, lesbians and other "sexual deviants", along with political enemies, might, but not POWs, and the Soviet Union will still expect them back (more on this later); Weber wants to make sure that this entire operation is "in-house", as it were.

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Re: Output

In one hand, they're using the prisoners for something
On the other hand, the work they do isn't even useful for anyone and you're throwing away potentially useful workforce by working them to death

That makes me wonder: What is the "useful" industrial output of the Kamerun death camps? There's probably going to be a number of people who will get cranky if Germany spends a bunch of resources sending people to Africa with little material gain for the Reich.

Well, mostly processing raw materials but also used to make valuable infrastructure

And yes, i'm thinking Speer would be disappoint (is he still in the game?)

Now, the colonies do raise an interesting question. Maybe they could be used as the sought after lebensraum? Even tho then you have to remove the natives too, but it's reverse america, instead of disease killing the natives, native diseases kill you, so they have to pull the "reee kill kill destroy kill" (maybe less destroy maybe?) scheme even further

There must be a lot of resources tied up in shipping so many people to the Cameroons, even cramming them in boxcar style of the Nazi's. And I agree I would think the first action of a new war would be Britain invading the Cameroons.

I must have forgotten to explicitly mention it, but the bulk of the labour still continues to be rubber-tapping, ensuring the Nazi war machine will have treads leading straight to Moscow (and beyond?), making the overall enterprise less of a dead loss (phrasing) than some of you would think.

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Re: Deaths

These are just so characteristic of the kind of bland euphemisms the Reich would have come up with. More chilling than the truth.

I do wonder whether Mazuku events would occur often enough to be useful as extermination tools. I get the impression they are quite infrequent. Undoubtedly something Heydrich would use if he could, though. Thoroughly unpleasant update, so, ironically, well done.

Question about TTL's "Final Solution", I wonder if this version is a more "positive" version than OTL. Historically, the Nazi's killed six million Jews alone, and while I'm not sure how many died in the Concentration Camps proper in total, the Nazi death toll across Eastern Europe between 1939 and 1945 easily reached fifteen million total. From the sounds of it, Nazi policies like a far less efficient means of killing people than gas chambers unless I'm missing something, and since the war in Eastern Europe is on hold the Nazi's won't be able to kill all the people they want there without deliberate action (or of course expelling them into the current borders of the Soviet Union). Several million of those casualties in Eastern Europe came from food shortages caused by the fighting that, to put it bluntly, the Nazis saw as if anything a positive development. Overall, might we see more people actually surviving the Holocaust and other assorted Nazi atrocities than OTL, and if that's the case what would the effect of a larger Jewish population be on the Commonwealth of Israel?

Yikes. They even figured out a way to use natural phenomena as a weapon of genocide. Germanic efficiency for ya.

You said that at least a sixth of all the people who were shipped to West Africa died. How many people in total were sent there? While the numbers are nowhere near as exact as OTL's figures for the Holocaust, that could give us some ballpark estimate.

As you three (amongst others) correctly deduced, the explicit death toll from the Final Solution policies is about "only" one or two million compared to OTL's six million. One thing the narrative of this TL is playing with, as it were, is the irony of TTL's death tolls and carnage representing the worst of possible worlds in TTL while its inhabitants remain blissfully(?) unaware of how much worse it could have been in certain ways. We'll learn more about the Commonwealth of Israel (think Peel Plan+) in due time.

As for the death toll once hostilities reopen, well.......

Also, I fear Holocaust denial is going to be more widespread in Germany that it is IOTL, probably at Japan's levels or worse. With the camps an ocean away, there's no real way to shuttle civilians over to see the death and sickness.

I hadn't explicitly considered this but this is a very true point.

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Re: Hostilities

I find it interesting that the descriptions of things going downhill after the "Collapse of the Reich's central authority" imply that the German colonies were not occupied at the time Germany was getting its face kicked in. Which is odd, You'd think that Britain and America would prioritize removing German naval bases in a renewed war.

Well, Weber's swapped out the gas chambers for volcanic gas chambers! I admit this is both horrific and devilishly creative.... But it seems much less efficient of a Final Solution than OTL. The wording at the end suggests less deaths than OTL, despite the reich lasting longer.

So it is a re-start of the eastern front that causes Part II of WWII? Well, I'd imagine that Stalin would try. Will the USA be joining in? I'd imagine that beating up Japan (How IS that war going, actually?) has giving them an appetite for destroying fascist dictatorships!

Anyways, nice update!

Nobody said the collapse of the Reich was brought by an external invasion as in OTL.
It may collapse due to many other reasons:
- internal infighting / civil war;
- socio-economic disaster;
- perestroika-type democratization;
- etc.

actually @Tom Colton has already established that the Soviet's invade Germany in the future (IIRC it's the main reason why Syria doesn't get any help against Britain once Japan is dealt with)

Unless Stalin the Dumbshit doesn't bother at all to keep up with German weapons development, I'm confident that the USSR can at least make some headway. Depends on how much help the western powers provide, but remember that in OTL the USSR was able to counter-attack the Reich despite the latter holding an India-sized chunk of the country for over a year.

We'll indeed see soon enough. Not all of causes listed by Zagan are mutually exclusive, mind you. Also, an India-sized chunk, you say...?

 

[Kung Fucious]

Nobody said the collapse of the Reich was brought by an external invasion as in OTL.
It may collapse due to many other reasons:
- internal infighting / civil war;
- socio-economic disaster;
- perestroika-type democratization;
- etc.

It's entirely possible that Weber might kick the bucket in the early 50's, triggering a civil war in the Reich that the Allies capitalize on.

 

[Mal Reynolds]

If the death toll of the final solution proper is only 1-2 million, what is the death toll across Eastern Europe going to look like? If wikipedia is anything to go by, Timothy Snyder figures the Hunger Plan alone killed around four million people in Eastern Europe, and the full plan envisioned by the Germans would have resulted in 20-30 million people dying, with the limitations being the inability to enforce a blockade of Soviet cities and completely steal every bite of food to be had. Is Weber as committed to the full lebansrum shtick that Hitler was (Slavs are untermensch who we need to cut down to half the current population by killing or deporting them and using the rest as slaves) or is he not going to care too much about that in his current occupation of Eastern Europe. And of course, if I remember Shrier correctly, a good chunk of the impetus behind the Hunger Plan came from the Nazi's not caring about their inability to feed the population in areas they occupied and their own forces and domestic popluation and figuring that if Eastern Europeans ended up dying to feed Aryans, all the better to remove what they viewed to be a surplus population. In short, given uncontested Nazi occupation of Eastern Europe, for now, what is the death toll going to look like across that region compared to OTL? Was anything similar to the Hunger Plan developed and, since the Germans have a free hand to execute it for the present moment, if it exists how bad will it end up getting?

Added to that, until hostilities resume between the USSR and Nazi Germany, how exactly are Soviet POW's held by the Germans being treated?

 

[Dan]

I don't want Stalin to win.

But I want the Reich to fall too.

The USSR Might Win, whether Stalin is there to see it is another matter...

 

[Nyvis]

Stalin's health isn't the best. Chances are he won't be alive to see the fall of the reich if it takes longer than OTL.

 

[Vuru]

Who says the reich must fall?

Maybe they pull a Franco or a more extreme case, a khmer rogue (they still exist, and have government of a single small area they won in local elections afaik)

 

[Wayside]

Who says the reich must fall?

Maybe they pull a Franco or a more extreme case, a khmer rogue (they still exist, and have government of a single small area they won in local elections afaik)

It's been mentioned that the Reich will more or less totally collapse-there was talk of all those new buildings in Berlin getting torn down by mobs.

 

[Vuru]

Eh, it's been so long that i don't remember

 

[Hades]

Dammit don't get my hopes up for a new post!

 

[Tom Colton]

Sorry that progress has been slow guys, but it's a particularly busy phase of uni for me. I should be a lot more free once exams are done.

All I can say is that the Reich will indeed fall spectacularly, and its collapse will occur before the generations involved pass, but not much more beyond that. The German treatment and release of Soviet POWs will be elaborated on in the next chapter.

 

[cpip]

All I can say is that the Reich will indeed fall spectacularly, and its collapse will occur before the generations involved pass, but not much more beyond that. The German treatment and release of Soviet POWs will be elaborated on in the next chapter.

I wasn't sure about that one. I was starting to wonder if the Reich would survive at least to see its children grow to adulthood...

 

[Tom Colton]

I wasn't sure about that one. I was starting to wonder if the Reich would survive at least to see its children grow to adulthood...

All I can say is, watch out for Johann Adolf and Luise Eleonore Weber...

 

[Tom Colton]

Standing on the edge of the crater
Like the prophets once said

And the ashes are all cold now
No more bullets and the embers are dead

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Whispers in the air tell the tales
Of the brothers gone

Desolation, devastation
What a mess we made, when it all went wrong

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Watching from the edge of the circus
For the games to begin

Gladiators draw their swords
Form their ranks for Armageddon

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I'm nuclear
I'm wild

I'm breaking up inside

A heart of broken glass, defiled

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Deep inside
The abandoned child

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WEBER'S GERMANY RETURNS
JULY 2017

COME AND SEE​

 

[Analytical Engine]

*uncontrollable squeezing*

 

[Kevin R.]

Well... damn.

 

[pattontank12]

*grabs popcorn*

This is gonna be good.