Weber's Germany: The Veterinarian Totalitarian

[Tom Colton]

I didn't mean that they would destroy the projects. Just that they might be outraged that their homes and local history is being bulldozed for guache monstrosities.

Oh jeez, that was a bad parsing of your statement. My apologies.

We'll see more of just what extents Nazi megalomania goes to in TTL, but the more ludicrous ones like the super-train will go unexecuted for reasons of general sanity. Weber's two other homes (Frankfurt am Main and Munich) in particular will be getting the redecoration treatment, not to mention just what Hitler's image will wind up getting transformed into...

 

[Clandango]

Weber's two other homes (Frankfurt am Main and Munich) in particular will be getting the redecoration treatment, not to mention just what Hitler's image will wind up getting transformed into...

I am guessing they make a giant Statue of Liberty out of Hitler and they rename his hometown to Deutschfurt am Main?

 

[CrimsonKing]

I hope this doesn't sound stupid, but what is the Iversonian school? I googled it and didn't get any immediate results.

I've been thinking some more about HistLover's comment about how these events will be remembered and an interesting parallel occurred to me. If OTL's WW2 bears some similarity to the Napoleonic Wars, with France as Germany, TTL's Nazi Germany parallels the earlier conflicts extensively. Let me lay out the similarities (some of which apply to OTL of course)-France suffered humiliating defeats in the Seven Years' and American Revolutionary wars, which then combined with internal economic turmoil. Germany suffered defeat in WW1 and suffered economically from the subsequent Great Depression. France then experienced a revolution and subsequently regained much lost ground (natural frontiers, left bank of the Rhine, etc). Nazis took over Germany, rebuilt its power, and regained/took territory (Rhineland, Austria, etc) Under Napoleon, the French then launched the 1804-5 war against a British-led coalition. With a combination of skillful tactics and luck, he prevailed against Austria, then turned on Prussia with similar results. Finally, he turned east towards Russia, achieved a solid victory and used it as leverage to negotiate the Treaty of Tilsit. The period 1807-12 was the height of his empire. But France could not live with the down but by no means out Russia, and thus Napoleon went east once again. Under Weber, the Germans launched the 1939-40 war against a British-led coalition. With a combination of skillful tactics and luck, he achieved victory against Poland and France. He then turned east towards the USSR, won a solid but by no means decisive victory, and used it to leverage the Treaty of Sofia from the Soviets. The period 1942-195(?) marked the height of Weber's empire. But Germany could not live with the weakened but still formidable Soviet Union, and he therefore moved east again. Here, our chronicle of the Weberian Wars breaks off, but can we use those of Napoleon to fill in the gaps? Undone by a combination of hubris and logistical breakdowns, his Grande Armee melted in the Russian winter like snow in spring. Which is to say, maybe the answer is simply that the Wehrmacht, although it should be able to win with the resources at its disposal, will have been made complacent by its earlier victories and will mess up badly when war is renewed, leading to a similar catastrophic failure.

There is also the issue of leadership. OTL Weber died in 1954 at 62. Stalin died in 1953 when he was, IIRC, in his early 70s. Their deaths, or incapacitating illnesses are another wild card.

I am curious what my fellow readers think of the analogy. Does it provide some insight? Am I seeing patterns that aren't there? Should I just shut up?

 

[Tom Colton]

I hope this doesn't sound stupid, but what is the Iversonian school? I googled it and didn't get any immediate results.

Professor Norman Iverson is the co-author of this manuscript, and is also the head of a (fictional) school of thought concerning the Reich.

I've been thinking some more about HistLover's comment about how these events will be remembered and an interesting parallel occurred to me. If OTL's WW2 bears some similarity to the Napoleonic Wars, with France as Germany, TTL's Nazi Germany parallels the earlier conflicts extensively. Let me lay out the similarities (some of which apply to OTL of course)-France suffered humiliating defeats in the Seven Years' and American Revolutionary wars, which then combined with internal economic turmoil. Germany suffered defeat in WW1 and suffered economically from the subsequent Great Depression. France then experienced a revolution and subsequently regained much lost ground (natural frontiers, left bank of the Rhine, etc). Nazis took over Germany, rebuilt its power, and regained/took territory (Rhineland, Austria, etc) Under Napoleon, the French then launched the 1804-5 war against a British-led coalition. With a combination of skillful tactics and luck, he prevailed against Austria, then turned on Prussia with similar results. Finally, he turned east towards Russia, achieved a solid victory and used it as leverage to negotiate the Treaty of Tilsit. The period 1807-12 was the height of his empire. But France could not live with the down but by no means out Russia, and thus Napoleon went east once again. Under Weber, the Germans launched the 1939-40 war against a British-led coalition. With a combination of skillful tactics and luck, he achieved victory against Poland and France. He then turned east towards the USSR, won a solid but by no means decisive victory, and used it to leverage the Treaty of Sofia from the Soviets. The period 1942-195(?) marked the height of Weber's empire. But Germany could not live with the weakened but still formidable Soviet Union, and he therefore moved east again. Here, our chronicle of the Weberian Wars breaks off, but can we use those of Napoleon to fill in the gaps? Undone by a combination of hubris and logistical breakdowns, his Grande Armee melted in the Russian winter like snow in spring. Which is to say, maybe the answer is simply that the Wehrmacht, although it should be able to win with the resources at its disposal, will have been made complacent by its earlier victories and will mess up badly when war is renewed, leading to a similar catastrophic failure.

There is also the issue of leadership. OTL Weber died in 1954 at 62. Stalin died in 1953 when he was, IIRC, in his early 70s. Their deaths, or incapacitating illnesses are another wild card.

I am curious what my fellow readers think of the analogy. Does it provide some insight? Am I seeing patterns that aren't there? Should I just shut up?

That is a fascinating series of insights, and one I hadn't really considered. I suppose the Second World War(s) are very much like the Napoleonic Wars in that they represent the intersection of several conflicts related loosely by shared participants (like many of the 18th-century wars preceding the Revolution, e.g. the Seven Years' War, which is vaguely the historiography I was shooting for), but have a net effect somewhat more than the sum of their parts.

Keep that point about the deaths of the top totalitarians in mind.

Do continue! This is revealing more to what I've written than even what I've thought of.

 

[CrimsonKing]

Professor Norman Iverson is the co-author of this manuscript, and is also the head of a (fictional) school of thought concerning the Reich.


That is a fascinating series of insights, and one I hadn't really considered. I suppose the Second World War(s) are very much like the Napoleonic Wars in that they represent the intersection of several conflicts related loosely by shared participants (like many of the 18th-century wars preceding the Revolution, e.g. the Seven Years' War, which is vaguely the historiography I was shooting for), but have a net effect somewhat more than the sum of their parts.

Keep that point about the deaths of the top totalitarians in mind.

Do continue! This is revealing more to what I've written than even what I've thought of.

To continue with the comparison, then, lets see what happened to France after its defeat. Not as much as one might think, because many of the victors were concerned about what would happen if the French were made too weak.

Perhaps something similar could happen with TTL Germany if its renewed war with the USSR goes disastrously wrong. I have been assuming up till now the goal of the Wallies as in OTL is to completely defeat the Nazis and this goal comes before all others. If they don't do so, it will be because they either can't or don't believe they can, not because they don't want to. But, if one remembers for example, TTL's Iron Curtain speech mentioned two curtains coming down over the continent, perhaps this assumption should be reexamined. Lets say the Soviets are able to regain most/all of the territory they lost in round one and the Wehrmacht is as shattered as I speculated it might be. This is where the leadership issue comes in. If Weber dies at some point to be replaced by someone perceived as being easier to work with, and Stalin dies to be replaced by someone perceived as being more aggressive, the Wallies' sense of who is the bigger problem might change, and they could in this circumstance come to see the weakened Germany as a potential asset against a resurgent USSR and facilitate some kind of negotiated settlement, paving the way for the long, slow decline of the former

 

[Wayside]

Keep that point about the deaths of the top totalitarians in mind.

Will Weber and Stalin die at the same time they did IOTL? That stroke might happen earlier, or not at all, although there are some things even butterflies can't do. As to Weber, does anyone know what he died of? I recall him having died in reduced circumstances, but aside from that, he could probably last for a long time ITTL.

 

[FickleCrossroad]

Caught back up over months... NIIICE.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

Good update about how Weber is doing "urban renewal" in Berlin, and how Arno Breker is still favored TTL by the Nazis.

I would have thought other conquiered towns, especially in the East, would have benefitted from such attentions.

And is the 1984 pic representing the Hate Minute against doubleplusbad Ingsoc adversaries?

Lastly, will the announced end-of-reign riots caused by war weariness, and how these revolts impact the postwar settlement?

 

[Remitonov]

Good update about how Weber is doing "urban renewal" in Berlin, and how Arno Breker is still favored TTL by the Nazis.

I would have thought other conquiered towns, especially in the East, would have benefitted from such attentions.

And is the 1984 pic representing the Hate Minute against doubleplusbad Ingsoc adversaries?

Lastly, will the announced end-of-reign riots caused by war weariness, and how these revolts impact the postwar settlement?

He's using Oldspeak! Doubleplusungood crimethink!

 

[Tom Colton]

Caught back up over months... NIIICE.

Thanks! Glad to have you on board.

To continue with the comparison, then, lets see what happened to France after its defeat. Not as much as one might think, because many of the victors were concerned about what would happen if the French were made too weak.

Perhaps something similar could happen with TTL Germany if its renewed war with the USSR goes disastrously wrong. I have been assuming up till now the goal of the Wallies as in OTL is to completely defeat the Nazis and this goal comes before all others. If they don't do so, it will be because they either can't or don't believe they can, not because they don't want to. But, if one remembers for example, TTL's Iron Curtain speech mentioned two curtains coming down over the continent, perhaps this assumption should be reexamined. Lets say the Soviets are able to regain most/all of the territory they lost in round one and the Wehrmacht is as shattered as I speculated it might be. This is where the leadership issue comes in. If Weber dies at some point to be replaced by someone perceived as being easier to work with, and Stalin dies to be replaced by someone perceived as being more aggressive, the Wallies' sense of who is the bigger problem might change, and they could in this circumstance come to see the weakened Germany as a potential asset against a resurgent USSR and facilitate some kind of negotiated settlement, paving the way for the long, slow decline of the former

Interesting theories. We'll have to see how things play out...eventually.

Will Weber and Stalin die at the same time they did IOTL? That stroke might happen earlier, or not at all, although there are some things even butterflies can't do. As to Weber, does anyone know what he died of? I recall him having died in reduced circumstances, but aside from that, he could probably last for a long time ITTL.

Not if either has anything to say about the other, natch.

Good update about how Weber is doing "urban renewal" in Berlin, and how Arno Breker is still favored TTL by the Nazis.

I would have thought other conquiered towns, especially in the East, would have benefitted from such attentions.

And is the 1984 pic representing the Hate Minute against doubleplusbad Ingsoc adversaries?

Lastly, will the announced end-of-reign riots caused by war weariness, and how these revolts impact the postwar settlement?

Undoubtedly the Nazis will be doing such "urban renewal" and iconoclasm in its conquered territories, particularly in Gothica, which will be elaborated upon as we reach to the wider stretches of the Reich.

You're reaching the point of that picture closer than most people have so far.

War weariness is definitely a contributing factor, and the revolts will have an unmistakable impact on how the war and the peace pan out.

He's using Oldspeak! Doubleplusungood crimethink!

To Room 101 with him!

 

[Clandango]

I recall that William Randal Hearst bought medieval choir books and cut them into lampshades. And of course their was the unpleasent rumor of Nazis making people into lampshades and soap. Will you have things go that far, or instead have somethign lighter, like Goebbels or Goering using the libraries of Warsaw and Oraque to make paper mâché states of Hitler or giant guilts out of their tapestries? Overly comical of course, but it would make those statues invaluable as in the future people could try to carefully remove the not-paper (think it was linen and sheepskin) rom the mâché to see what was on the pages. And will it be a destruction for he history of the Polish ruling classes, or simply having them all be shown as Germanic, Nordic, or Hunnic, depending on how favorable they are considered historically?

 

[Tom Colton]

Yeah, so I finished making infoboxes

I recall that William Randal Hearst bought medieval choir books and cut them into lampshades. And of course their was the unpleasent rumor of Nazis making people into lampshades and soap. Will you have things go that far, or instead have somethign lighter, like Goebbels or Goering using the libraries of Warsaw and Oraque to make paper mâché states of Hitler or giant guilts out of their tapestries? Overly comical of course, but it would make those statues invaluable as in the future people could try to carefully remove the not-paper (think it was linen and sheepskin) rom the mâché to see what was on the pages. And will it be a destruction for he history of the Polish ruling classes, or simply having them all be shown as Germanic, Nordic, or Hunnic, depending on how favorable they are considered historically?

Nothing in this TL has ever reached cartoonish levels of supervillainy, so while books will be burned and literature will be suppressed, the attempts to reshape history to suit the Nazi ideal will be more subtle than that.

But first, a quick look at the Asia-Pacific War!

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​

1942
February
4/2: The air war over Sumatra begins with a raid on Palembang.

Port facilities on fire at Palembang.​

7/2: Port Moresby, New Guinea, is attacked by Japanese bombers.[/FONT]

14/2: The Malayan Campaign stabilizes along the Mersing Line. The Battle of Singapore begins that very night.

15/2: A massive raid on Singapore – the Chinese New Year Raid – flattens much of its administrative centre near the Singapore River, with the exception of the Supreme Court, which is used as a landmark by Japanese bombers. The local populace is simply angered instead of terrified, and is further incensed by the sight of British colonists being evacuated by sea.

Justice Stands Supreme, an iconic photograph of the Supreme Court on St. Andrew’s Road after the Chinese New Year raid. [1]​

21/2: Generalissimo Chiang Kai-Shek is killed in a bombing raid in Lashio, Burma. The competing factions of the Kuomintang and the military eventually agree on a triumvirate comprising President T.V. Soong, Generalissimo Chen Cheng and Madame Chiang appointed as the Chinese ambassador to the United States. Mao Tse-Tung denounces the trio as the “Gang of Three”, ready to sacrifice China to American interests at the drop of a hat. [2]

(Left to right) President T.V. Soong, Generalissimo Chen Cheng and Ambassadress Soong May-Ling, Chiang Kai-Shek’s widow, the members of the post-Chiang Triumvirate in China.​

[1] Singapore has more than Brewster Buffaloes to fight with in the air war, thanks the realisation of the threat earlier and the fact that all those Spitfires and Hurricanes aren't fighting the Battle of Britain. There is a strong enough resemblance between the Old Supreme Court Building and St. Paul's for me to appropriate the image.
[2] A big thank you to everyone in this thread, especially David T, for figuring out who would take the reins after Chiang's demise. Yes, this does make two of triumvirate brother and sister, but hey, it wouldn't be the Nationalists without a healthy dose of corruption and nepotism, would it?

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Hardly a morsel of an update, I know, but we'll be back to your scheduled Reich hijinks come next weekend.

 

[shiftygiant]

I can only see this being a happy ending.

 

[ruth]

Short but sweet! You don't mess around. I was not expecting Chiang to vanish so early on—makes me want to know what you've got planned for China in the coming years.

 

[Tom Colton]

Thanks, all!

I can only see this being a happy ending.

Well, Singapore is already holding out for longer than it did OTL. It's going to be rough, though.

Short but sweet! You don't mess around. I was not expecting Chiang to vanish so early on—makes me want to know what you've got planned for China in the coming years.

Thank you! Well, Chiang's death is essentially one of convenience here - and yes, I do have big plans for China in the war and beyond.

OTL LEADER DEATH COUNT:

• Hitler - 1924
• Mussolini - 1941
• Chiang Kai-Shek - 1942
• Churchill - ????
• FDR - ????
• Stalin - ????
• Petain - ????
• Charles de Gaulle - ????
• Hideki Tojo - ????
• Mao Zedong - ????

Clearly, being an OTL world leader doesn't seem to be fantastic for life in this TL.

 

[CrimsonKing]

I wonder if the Soviets are going to jump in at some point.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

Will Jiang Jieshi's death enable the KMT to make some house-cleaning in China, and thereby prevent the Communist takeover? And how the warlords are viewing this triumvirate?

Finally, how the Japaneses will use the flight of the colonist in their propaganda aimed to Singapore resicents?

 

[Tom Colton]

I wonder if the Soviets are going to jump in at some point.

Not just yet; although their Far Eastern Front is actually pretty secure, there's no reason for military adventurism right now.

Will Jiang Jieshi's death enable the KMT to make some house-cleaning in China, and thereby prevent the Communist takeover? And how the warlords are viewing this triumvirate?

Finally, how the Japaneses will use the flight of the colonist in their propaganda aimed to Singapore resicents?

Absolutely, and the Soongs are also going to start a more pro-American bent than Chiang ever did, which may make the warlords pause to consider the "sleeping giant" possibly coming all the way to China.

They probably will, but given who's dropping the bombs, it's unlikely to be very convincing.

Previous update is here. (And I'm pretty sure the link is correct this time )

 

[shiftygiant]

I greatly fear that we'll end up on a bleaker For All Time, although I'm optimistic this'll be a happier Anglo-American/Nazi War.

Speaking of AA/NW, Colton, if offered, would you join in with Sealion and publish this?

 

[Tom Colton]

I greatly fear that we'll end up on a bleaker For All Time, although I'm optimistic this'll be a happier Anglo-American/Nazi War.

Speaking of AA/NW, Colton, if offered, would you join in with Sealion and publish this?

More the latter, less the former. I really need to make this post a bookmark.

As for the second, I am actually in negotiations with Meadow, but it'll be a looong time before this is finished, let alone edited to be fit for publishing.