Weber's Germany: The Veterinarian Totalitarian

[HistLover]

Two things

One, I did not see an estimate on the next update so can you tell us if any more is coming within the month or something?

Second, keep all of the updates here as that makes it easier to jump back and forth to other updates and so forth.

Maybe after this book that focuses on the Germans is done you could write about a second book by the authors titled "Something and Something: the Greater German Reich impact across the world" or maybe a book focusing on the wars themselves with actual battles and military technology specs

 

[Tom Colton]

Re: Update schedule and style, with a bonus nervous breakdown

Fantastic update! Can't wait for the next one.

Two things

One, I did not see an estimate on the next update so can you tell us if any more is coming within the month or something?

Second, keep all of the updates here as that makes it easier to jump back and forth to other updates and so forth.

Maybe after this book that focuses on the Germans is done you could write about a second book by the authors titled "Something and Something: the Greater German Reich impact across the world" or maybe a book focusing on the wars themselves with actual battles and military technology specs

In this thread, of course! It is way easier to follow.

And I think the Pacific-related updates should be made on this thread, for better readibility.

Thank you all!

I should be returning to my fortnightly style, but no guarantees (hence why I'm reticent to set a particular date) because this is my final year of school and everything sounds super much and I should be working on my thesis and oh god there's no time for nothing-

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- ahem. So yeah, fortnightly or delayed by a week or two, max.

I have ideas for no less than three spinoffs for this TL, the first being a list of US Presidents (and UK PMs) after the dust settles - this may simply be relegated to a post in the "Alternate Presidents and PMs list", the second being an elaboration of how Cameroon recovers from the disastrous effects of the Final Solution, probably in TLIAD/W form and the last one about how China's doing after the conclusion of the Asia-Pacific War as well as █████ NO SPOILERS FOR YOU ████████████.

That's three votes for keeping things all within one thread; unless four guys chime in about how they want to have another thread for the Asia-Pacific stuff, I'll assume that's representative.

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Re: No Quickies For You

Nice update

My personal more positive opinion for the rest of the war, is
1. Japan defeated 1945 by landing in Kyushu. Japanese high command surrenders after realising the Allies are unstoppable.

2. European theatre starts up again in early 1945 when weber tries to finish off Soviet union.

3.Nato gets involved a month later. Launches invasions of Italian east africa and Libya, as well as Syria. France relucalte to enter war.

4. Some kind of Invasion of Scilly. Soviet union loses moscow but continues to fight on with western aid.

5. By end of 1945, nuclear weapons ready. One dropped on Hamburg.

After that I don't know.

No, Italy ITTL seem to plan to get away from the German sphere of influence and with Balbo in charge i doubt that they will follow Weber regime in an all out war agaisnt NATO.
It's more probable that Italy stay out of the conflict or breaks ranks much earlier due to the overbearing influence of Germany and the desire to mantain independence.

A war in the late 40/early 50 mean only one thing nuclear weapons, lot of nuclear weapon. Probably this is one of the very few scenarios where an attack plan like the one used in the 'The Big One' is reasonable and doable.

That probably represents the fastest way to end this TL.

That is not how this TL will end.

What kinds of weapons will be used in the next war will very much be the product of who's fighting the next war. Balbo will, as far as he can, try to avoid getting Italy embroiled in needless wars under his watch.

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Re: Come and See

Just a few thoughts-is it possible perhaps that Weber could pretend that he has some super-bio or chemical weapons and try to establish a kind of weird MAD situation with the Wallies? Could the Wallies sit back, give aid to the USSR, then let the Germans and Soviets fight it out? Also, if the US is by this time a member of TTL's NATO or whatever its called, it would seem an awfully big risk for Germany to go east again and leave themselves open to being back stabbed. Of course, a lot will depend on how successful the German economy is during these intervening years.

Why pretend?

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Re: Infernal Affairs

Yay, another update!

I like how Weber is writing in the Constitution his 1000 Years Reich, and especially the "period of national emergency," which will enable him to bypass his rubber-stamp assemblies when he will want.

I have the impression the non-Aryan subjects of the Reich would be wholly under administrative law, arbitrarily made by the local gauleiters and other Nazi rulers and agencies; what are the constitutional rules related to the territories other than full-fledged Gaues, i.e. protectorates?

Interestingly enough, I think this is the first time in this TL that anyone has used the phrase "thousand-year", and it isn't even in the same sense that we know it. Just chalk it up to an alternate development of National Socialism, I guess.

Weber, if nothing, else, does love his legalistic chicanery and dressing his hideous ambitions with the veil of legitimacy, and this stinks of being really unnecessary given that he and the Nazis have been using the Weimar Constitution as toilet-paper anyway, but unless the constitution itself is deemed to be illegal, it's carte blanche to do whatever he wants - and as long as the Reich stands, it'll be sarcosanct.

The protectorates are under puppet civil governments, with the German plenipotentiaries bascially acting as client kings. This'll be elaborated in later chapters, with a focus on new developments in the Baltics, Belarus and Ukraine. The Reichsgau system is still in effect in the annexed bits of Poland, but are essentially governed in the same way.

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Re: Necessary Evil (?)

[IT LIVES! GIF]

Great to see this TL updated!

Contrary to some, I'm hoping the Soviet Union does not collapse; that would kill millions of people in the Soviet Union and greatly lengthen the amount of time the National Socialists survive for, resulting in milllions more deaths. Hopefully Stalin will survive and thus hold the Soviet Union together long enough to defeat Germany and then die.

I disagree with the assumption that nuclear weapons would end the war instantly. If the Allies have enough of them to plaster Saxony and the Ruhr with bombs, tthe National Socialists would hold on until the Continent was invaded and themselves driven from their seats of power. If the western powers are truly dependent on purely aerial combat and do not manage to swiftly launch a successful invasion of the Continent, they'll probably meet the Red Army at the Rhine. Ruining Germany's industrial capacity + lacking a suitably powerful and well-supplied army on the ground to exploit it = the Soviets who do have an army on the ground take advantage of that ruined German industrial capacity to launch major advances that Germany soon runs out of the ability to present serious resistance to.
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In OTL, Stalin died in 1953 and that changed about nothing for Eastern Europe. We still suffered under communist occupation for another 36 years!

Well, a debate about the effects, positive and negative, of Soviet influence in general and Stalinism in particular, cannot possibly be contained in this thread and what is essentially an extended thought-experiment about a more successful Nazi Germany. All I can say is that Eastern Europe will be forever changed by the tumultuous events to follow and its political landscape will be markedly distinct from OTL, and whether this is "better" or "worse" I leave to the judgment of my capable readers.

I forgot to mention the amount of Lend-Lease that the Soviets were getting, which is minuscule compared to OTL because there was no aid going from the USA to Britain (beyond usual trade) after the Gutenberg treaty and what Churchill wanted to send over eventually got interdicted thanks to the Murmansk and Leningrad offensives.

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Phew, I think that covers everything for the time being. See you all in a couple of weeks' time!

 

[Caesar Biden]

I forgot to mention the amount of Lend-Lease that the Soviets were getting, which is minuscule compared to OTL because there was no aid going from the USA to Britain (beyond usual trade) after the Gutenberg treaty and what Churchill wanted to send over eventually got interdicted thanks to the Murmansk and Leningrad offensives.

So are you saying that the USSR is on the verge of starvation? Being deprived of Ukraine, without L-L and right after the war, mass famine doesn't seem just likely, but inevitable.

 

[Wayside]

I have ideas for no less than three spinoffs for this TL, the first being a list of US Presidents (and UK PMs) after the dust settles - this may simply be relegated to a post in the "Alternate Presidents and PMs list", the second being an elaboration of how Cameroon recovers from the disastrous effects of the Final Solution...

Let's see... Warren, Dewey, and maybe Taft would be the obvious choices, but it all depends on the outcome of the Pacific War and how badly things go in Europe. Speaking of which, I'd love to see a wikibox for the 1940 election.

Also-oooo, Cameroon! I was deeply intrigued by the whole "Cameroonian Empire" thing under Führer Samuel L. Jac-I mean, Julius Winfred.

 

[HistLover]

I got some more questions to pass the time Colton

Do you think that Germany, whether while it is still "sane" or just before it completely collapses might take some revenge on Italy if it decides to not join them in open warfare, or worse stabs them in the back? And/or would Germany ever go for a total destruction policy like it did in the Anglo/American world?

Have you ever hear and or read a comic book series called Uber, its an interesting read for superhero's and the last days of world war II.

I find the latest description on what's happening in the Pacific to be a little vague, did the US suffer more or less damage in the opening attack than in OTL and why? Also is the initial phase (6 months-1 year) going better, faster/more extensive expansion?

In the Foreword it says that the maximum of occupied territory was from the French border to the Baltic, but does that only mean the territory that was directly administered by the Reich, if so that opens the possibility that Germany might "move" Westward if only for a few years, 5 at most.

Finally lets talk about causalities, can you compare and contrast how many the following nations suffered in TTL 1942 and OTL 1942?
Germany, Italy, France, Britain, Russia, and the occupied regions.

 

[eustacethemonk]

I really really like your writing. Also this seems like silly praise but this is one of the best formatted TLs I've seen; how long do you spend formatting your posts? My only quibble is that "Pax Germania" isn't correct, since "German" needs to be an adjective — it should be "Pax Germanica."

 

[B_Munro]

Couple thoughts:

The Soviet Union: can't they sell any of their impressive variety of raw materials for food?

Nukes: without a war to drive something on the scale of the massively expensive US program of OTL, their development will quite likely be delayed by some years, maybe not until the 1950s. Of course, in this world, it's certain we have multiple programs going on...

 

[Tom Colton]

Re: Oil for Food, and Mushrooms You Can't Eat

So are you saying that the USSR is on the verge of starvation? Being deprived of Ukraine, without L-L and right after the war, mass famine doesn't seem just likely, but inevitable.

Couple thoughts:

The Soviet Union: can't they sell any of their impressive variety of raw materials for food?

Nukes: without a war to drive something on the scale of the massively expensive US program of OTL, their development will quite likely be delayed by some years, maybe not until the 1950s. Of course, in this world, it's certain we have multiple programs going on...

Now that the ports are reopened, they'll probably be rushing to buy food however they can. The returning POWs may not find conditions much better from the Ration Plan, unfortunately.

Nuclear research is rather slow compared to OTL, but will probably accelerate soon for reasons to be revealed within this very chapter.

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Re: It's Barely Halfway Done and He's Talking Sequels Already?

Let's see... Warren, Dewey, and maybe Taft would be the obvious choices, but it all depends on the outcome of the Pacific War and how badly things go in Europe. Speaking of which, I'd love to see a wikibox for the 1940 election.

Also-oooo, Cameroon! I was deeply intrigued by the whole "Cameroonian Empire" thing under Führer Samuel L. Jac-I mean, Julius Winfred.

The 1940 election (I'll do a Wikibox once I muster up the skill and actually do some research beyond saying "The Democrats did slightly worse than OTL, but not really meaningfully") isn't the last we've seen of Dewey, not to worry. His future is still very much ahead of him.

It feels exploitative to use Cameroon to revive the worst of Darkest Africa tropes in making it the site of the Final Solution: the least I can do is to devote my time and energy in treating its (albeit fictionalised) populace with respect, hence my reasons for wanting to explore the struggle from nation-sized concentration camp to modern African nation. Julius Winfeld is essentially a means for me to avoid tarring anyone who was actually involved in OTL's path to independence - think of him as basically Idi Amin or Bokassa come early, except also a Nazi.

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Re: ...And the rest!

I got some more questions to pass the time Colton

Do you think that Germany, whether while it is still "sane" or just before it completely collapses might take some revenge on Italy if it decides to not join them in open warfare, or worse stabs them in the back? And/or would Germany ever go for a total destruction policy like it did in the Anglo/American world?

Have you ever hear and or read a comic book series called Uber, its an interesting read for superhero's and the last days of world war II.

I find the latest description on what's happening in the Pacific to be a little vague, did the US suffer more or less damage in the opening attack than in OTL and why? Also is the initial phase (6 months-1 year) going better, faster/more extensive expansion?

In the Foreword it says that the maximum of occupied territory was from the French border to the Baltic, but does that only mean the territory that was directly administered by the Reich, if so that opens the possibility that Germany might "move" Westward if only for a few years, 5 at most.

Finally lets talk about causalities, can you compare and contrast how many the following nations suffered in TTL 1942 and OTL 1942?
Germany, Italy, France, Britain, Russia, and the occupied regions.

The answer to the first depends on who's steering the crashing SS Germania into the maelstrom - launch lifeboats or destroy them out of spite? The lives of thousands, if not millions, may be banking on the choices of the leadership.

I've seen excerpts of Uber. All I can say is that the Hitler of Uber and the Hitler of Downfall are disturbingly similar in mindset. I've also finished a Let's Play of Wolfenstein: The New Order, and I may use some of their grim tone - the latter moreso than the former, given than The New Order ironically has more hope despite the Nazis winning to an even greater extent. Uber seems to indulge in making things worse and worse for everyone with every issue, while The New Order at least ends in a major victory for whatever Allies remain.

It's vague because I'm not a military historian, and I don't want this thread to spiral into arguments over actions of individual vessels - this isn't that kind of TL. That said, I will elaborate on the Pacific Front starting from December 1941 come the Asia-Pacific War update.

That was also vague because I hadn't decided how successful the Nazis could plausibly be, but Alsace-Lorraine was France proper before Gutenberg and the Baltic States have fallen into the German sphere of influence, if not control. The first paragraph of this chapter implies that things aren't quite settled yet.

I estimate Soviet casualties to be considerably higher, if only because of Leningrad and Murmansk (the latter to a much smaller extent) while the Germans and the rest of the Axis fare slightly better due to a stronger logistics train.

I really really like your writing. Also this seems like silly praise but this is one of the best formatted TLs I've seen; how long do you spend formatting your posts? My only quibble is that "Pax Germania" isn't correct, since "German" needs to be an adjective — it should be "Pax Germanica."

Thank you very much! It means a lot to me. Also, welcome to AH.com!

It's already more or less in that format in Word, so what I do is post it into the text box in Advanced mode, preview it once then fix all the font sizes and text alignment in the next draft(s) (because the word editor here defaults it all to size 2, which is miniscule for Times New Roman) before I insert the photos from imgur and publish it for all your reading pleasure.

Fixed re: Germanica. Wikipedia has it as Pax Germania (CORRECTION: I AM A DUMMY WHO CAN'T READ), but given that it was Pax Britannica in OTL (and Pax Romana before it), "Germanica" makes much more grammatical sense.

 

[CrimsonKing]

The way I see it, there are basically three things that could happen: 1. Germany vs USSR. Unlikely, because it is hard to see how this by itself could lead to Weber's downfall. On its own, it would probably result in either a draw or a German victory. 2. Wallies vs Germany, USSR sits on the sidelines. If the Wallies just drop lots of nukes, this would definitely work. Unfortunately, we have already been informed that that won't happen. 3. Wallies and USSR vs Germany. This would definitely bring down Germany, but probably not with the kind of tumult that we have been led to expect. So we're basically left with either 2 or 3.

My personal guess is that round two will start in one of two ways. First, Weber decides to finish off the Soviet Union, then gets attacked by the Wallies before he can complete the job. Second, a move by the United States to join TTL's NATO analogue causes Weber to panic and reoccupy France, triggering war with Britain and the USA. Piling speculation on speculation, he could then hunker down and await the Wallies' attack, or more likely goes east again before the Wallies are fully mobilized. Perhaps he decides to use some of the really nasty bio and chemical weapons his scientists have been working on. This almost works, but the Soviets barely manage to hold out for long enough to be rescued by the Wallies; in the process, they sustain huge damage and are unable to become a superpower like in OTL.

 

[Wayside]

I doubt the U.S.'s entry into this... standoff? Cold war? Whatever it is, would Weber really panic enough to re-occupy France? My personal theory is that he's going to spend the next five or six years turtling, leading to a grinding, nuke/bio/chem-filled war that will devastate Europe and leave the U.S. in not much better shape.

 

[CrimsonKing]

I absolutely agree that Weber would hate to do it, but against an alliance of Britain, the US, and the French with France as a base, Germany is simply going to get crushed. The combined might of those countries once they're fully mobilized is unbelievable, and the Rhineland is sitting almost literally right on the border. It is within easy range of even tactical and medium range bombers escorted by short range fighters, let alone proper strategic bombers. And once the Germans lose the Rhineland, they're done.

 

[Analytical Engine]

I wonder if the WAllies will "test" a few nuclear bombs on German cities...

 

[Tom Colton]

Re: Some Laconic Answers to Some Wordy Assessments

The way I see it, there are basically three things that could happen: 1. Germany vs USSR. Unlikely, because it is hard to see how this by itself could lead to Weber's downfall. On its own, it would probably result in either a draw or a German victory. 2. Wallies vs Germany, USSR sits on the sidelines. If the Wallies just drop lots of nukes, this would definitely work. Unfortunately, we have already been informed that that won't happen. 3. Wallies and USSR vs Germany. This would definitely bring down Germany, but probably not with the kind of tumult that we have been led to expect. So we're basically left with either 2 or 3.

My personal guess is that round two will start in one of two ways. First, Weber decides to finish off the Soviet Union, then gets attacked by the Wallies before he can complete the job. Second, a move by the United States to join TTL's NATO analogue causes Weber to panic and reoccupy France, triggering war with Britain and the USA. Piling speculation on speculation, he could then hunker down and await the Wallies' attack, or more likely goes east again before the Wallies are fully mobilized. Perhaps he decides to use some of the really nasty bio and chemical weapons his scientists have been working on. This almost works, but the Soviets barely manage to hold out for long enough to be rescued by the Wallies; in the process, they sustain huge damage and are unable to become a superpower like in OTL.

Some of these things will happen.

I doubt the U.S.'s entry into this... standoff? Cold war? Whatever it is, would Weber really panic enough to re-occupy France? My personal theory is that he's going to spend the next five or six years turtling, leading to a grinding, nuke/bio/chem-filled war that will devastate Europe and leave the U.S. in not much better shape.

Some of these things might happen.

I absolutely agree that Weber would hate to do it, but against an alliance of Britain, the US, and the French with France as a base, Germany is simply going to get crushed. The combined might of those countries once they're fully mobilized is unbelievable, and the Rhineland is sitting almost literally right on the border. It is within easy range of even tactical and medium range bombers escorted by short range fighters, let alone proper strategic bombers. And once the Germans lose the Rhineland, they're done.

This is an accurate strategic summation.

I wonder if the WAllies will "test" a few nuclear bombs on German cities...

Come and see.

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Next update concerning the reshuffling of the Wehrmacht and the cabinet will be ready on the weekend of 24th October (Saturday)!
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[Tom Colton]

Great Scott! If my calculations are correct...

In honour of it being October 21st 2015, 4:29 PM (in London, at least), let's peel the curtain back a bit on the unwitting instigator of this entire TL - a man who otherwise would be a bit player in this clash of titans, but whose research and theories Paul Driscoll appropriated many, many years down the road to what he thought were noble ends. Little did Paul know how things would turn out thanks to his meddling.

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Don't quite get it? Look at the title of this post and you probably will. Your regularly scheduled update will be on this weekend, i.e. that of Saturday, 24th October 2015.
(And yes, Wernher von Braun did indeed have brothers - Wenher was the middle son. This one got out of dodge when the Reich started suppressing scientists.)

 

[Clandango]

Dang. Preferred him as a mysterious figure.

 

[Tom Colton]

Dang. Preferred him as a mysterious figure.

Not to worry - Paul himself remains an unknown in this world, it's just that his sojourn was based off the good Doc's theorems. I've never said what era Paul came from because I don't want to date this TL any more than I already have.

 

[shiftygiant]

In honour of it being October 21st 2015, 4:29 PM (in London, at least), let's peel the curtain back a bit on the unwitting instigator of this entire TL - a man who otherwise would be a bit player in this clash of titans, but whose research and theories Paul Driscoll appropriated many, many years down the road to what he thought were noble ends. Little did Paul know how things would turn out thanks to his meddling.
Don't quite get it? Look at the title of this post and you probably will. Your regularly scheduled update will be on this weekend, i.e. that of Saturday, 24th October 2015.
(And yes, Wernher von Braun did indeed have brothers - Wenher was the middle son. This one got out of dodge when the Reich started suppressing scientists.)

Great Scott!

I thought you retconned Paul.

 

[Tom Colton]

Great Scott!

I thought you retconned Paul.

Oh, heavens no! He's a plot device which has served its purpose.

Also, once again trying to avoid end of page syndrome...

In honour of it being October 21st 2015, 4:29 PM (in London, at least), let's peel the curtain back a bit on the unwitting instigator of this entire TL - a man who otherwise would be a bit player in this clash of titans, but whose research and theories Paul Driscoll appropriated many, many years down the road to what he thought were noble ends. Little did Paul know how things would turn out thanks to his meddling.

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Don't quite get it? Look at the title of this post and you probably will. Your regularly scheduled update will be on this weekend, i.e. that of Saturday, 24th October 2015.
(And yes, Wernher von Braun did indeed have brothers - Wenher was the middle son. This one got out of dodge when the Reich started suppressing scientists.)

To recap, the good Doc is simply yet another nuclear scientist and theoretical physicist in TTL's version of the Manhattan Project, and probably never modified a Delorean or anything silly like that. Perish the thought.

 

[HistLover]

Personally if the whole time travel thing isn't what you want I just imagine Hitler being killed by an overeager police officer/protester during the Munich Putsh

 

[Clandango]

Oh, heavens no! He's a plot device which has served its purpose.

Also, once again trying to avoid end of page syndrome...



To recap, the good Doc is simply yet another nuclear scientist and theoretical physicist in TTL's version of the Manhattan Project, and probably never modified a Delorean or anything silly like that. Perish the thought.

Still, sure you want to go that route? You could just have him driving the DeLorean and hitting Churchill, smashing him like a gooseberry.