But I want it now!
Me too!
Although I have less patience than Dr Riviera has patients...
Weber's Germany: The Veterinarian Totalitarian
- Thread starter Tom Colton
- Start date
Me too!
Although I have less patience than Dr Riviera has patients...
Finally all the way back up to place. Congrats on the win, if I didn't already.
Upthread comments have me wondering about how things go way in TTL's future. I have always been a fan of the idea that a Russia whose eastern borders are the Dnieper-Dvina line due to a different first half of the 20th century could be plausible if done righf, and it looks like your story could be an interesting take on how to get there.
It sure would bring a different sort of mess in TTL's 2015, though! Urk...
Upthread comments have me wondering about how things go way in TTL's future. I have always been a fan of the idea that a Russia whose eastern borders are the Dnieper-Dvina line due to a different first half of the 20th century could be plausible if done righf, and it looks like your story could be an interesting take on how to get there.
It sure would bring a different sort of mess in TTL's 2015, though! Urk...
You should do an infobox for Weber's version of Nazi Germany (not Weber himself, but for his regime).
Thank you!Finally all the way back up to place. Congrats on the win, if I didn't already.
Upthread comments have me wondering about how things go way in TTL's future. I have always been a fan of the idea that a Russia whose eastern borders are the Dnieper-Dvina line due to a different first half of the 20th century could be plausible if done righf, and it looks like your story could be an interesting take on how to get there.
It sure would bring a different sort of mess in TTL's 2015, though! Urk...
I think you mean western border though, right? The legacy of Weber's World will have good fruit and bad, and it's up to its residents to make the best of it, much like OTL.
Thank you very much!
Eheh...about the update...see below.
Those will have their day in the sun in due course. When have I ever disappointed?
I'll do it after *Barbarossa, if I get round to it.
===
BAD NEWS: Due to heavy studying/partying, the deadline will be delayed to Monday at the earliest, or before midnight tonight if you're really lucky (but don't count on it). Apologies.
BAD NEWS: Due to heavy studying/partying, the deadline will be delayed to Monday at the earliest, or before midnight tonight if you're really lucky (but don't count on it). Apologies.
Eheh...about the update...see below.
BAD NEWS: Due to heavy studying/partying, the deadline will be delayed to Monday at the earliest, or before midnight tonight if you're really lucky (but don't count on it). Apologies.
As a student in one of the drinkingest countries on the face of the planet, I can't criticise you too much
I can only send my best regards for the hangover, the educational assessment which led to the celebrations giving birth to said hangover, and for whatever shenanigans you may have gotten up to whilst getting there Eagerly awaiting the next update so I have something decent to do to procrastinate from my own latest assignments!
Germaniac
Donor
Thank you!
===
BAD NEWS: Due to heavy studying/partying, the deadline will be delayed to Monday at the earliest, or before midnight tonight if you're really lucky (but don't count on it). Apologies.
No worries sir, I am working of quite the Sunday morning hangover now so I am in no position to complain.
BAD NEWS: Due to heavy studying/partying, the deadline will be delayed to Monday at the earliest, or before midnight tonight if you're really lucky (but don't count on it). Apologies.
[/LEFT]
[/CENTER]
Strangely, I find that an acceptable reason for delaying.
Marc A
On page 28 and I must say I am surprised Laval has not shown up yet. I am somewhat sympathize to him as I am to Quisoing, despite being part Norwegian. Mostly he meant well, had the courage of his convictions, and did not flee to Spain like the Belgian collaborator who came to visit did. As for Laval, he is certainly someone who should show up more often in timelines as he had constantly attempted to help France survive, only to have others screw it up for him before the war. Then again, don't know much on his policies or how he handled sending of the guest-workers to Germany. Just posting this show how pleasantly surprised I will be if he shows up.
6.3 Development and Sacrifice
Re: The Morning After
Re: Germanic vs. German
As for the terminology? Not much. Just consider it Early Installment Weirdness, although Weber is a bit more relaxed than Hitler when it comes to broadening definitions of "German".
Re: Laval
Re: What update?
THIS F____ING UPDATE
The second phase of Operation Barbarossa can broadly be defined by (in addition to the general halts on the Central and Southern fronts) the beginning of Finnish involvement in the Great Patriotic War (referred to in Finland as the Continuation War to signify continuity with the Winter War), as demonstrated by the aforementioned Battle of Tallinn Bay as well as the twin joint strikes at Murmansk in the north in Operation Arctic Fox, aimed at isolating and overrunning the warm-water port, and at Leningrad where the efforts of the Finnish Defence Forces and Army Group North would converge to achieve the capitulation of the Baltic port, which would cement the “strangulation” of Soviet Russia, and (hopefully) force Stalin to the negotiating table when confronted with the reality of no relief from the continent-scale siege.
The actions of the Finnish Defence Forces must be understood in the context of their overall diplomatic policy regarding the German Reich and the Soviet Union. While invasion paranoia and revanchist sentiments were at all-time highs, as was Finnish irredentism encapsulated in the concept of “Greater Finland” with its eastern border extended to the White Sea, engulfing the whole of Murmansk Oblast and Karelia, these ambitions did not extend southwards into Leningrad, explaining their reluctance to complete the encirclement of the city and Küchler’s bloody attempts to do it with only the resources of Army Group North. Furthermore, the Finnish public in general and Ryti in particular were sceptical – even disturbed – by the authoritarianism of the Tripartite and Anti-Comintern Pact powers, maintaining their democratic traditions even as war raged on. These factors thus further explain Finland’s co-belligerent status, short of any full alliance with the Reich.
Figure 23: Marshal Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim (extreme left), commander-in-chief of the Finnish Defence Forces, and President Risto Ryti of Finland (third from left) reviewing bicycle infantry.
The Finno-German Treaty of Friendship provided for sharing of military intelligence and weapons systems, building upon the secret military cooperation between Finland and Germany during the First Interim Peace. German munitions factories were able to study Soviet tanks during the Winter War and adjust the designs of newer Panzer IVs in response to Soviet armour, and Generalleutenant Erwin Rommel consulted with his counterpart General Hjalmar Siilasvuo regarding the challenges of local terrain, especially along the mountain ranges separating Finnish territory from Soviet Karelia in planning the Murmansk assault [2], Operation Polarfuchs (Arctic Fox) – the singular operation that would grant his wartime epithet along with his promotion to Field Marshal [3].
Figure 24: Map detailing the overall strategy of Operation Polarfuchs (Arctic Fox), the Finno-German offensive aimed at isolating and overrunning Murmansk.
Thus, on the 16th of June, following the initiation of Barbarossa and the border battles, Operation Rentier (Reindeer) went into action, with the Narvik Corps linking up with their Finnish counterparts, with Platinfuchs launching on the 22nd. The Soviet troops on the border were caught by surprise by the size of force which thundered across, with the 2nd Mountain Division capturing the Titovka Valley and the 3rd securing land access to the Rybachy Peninsula on the first day of operations. Although the terrain was unfamiliar, close coordination between Finnish and German forces ensured that momentum went ahead at an acceptable rate. Soviet counterattacks were blunted by the actions of the Arktisflotte, which engaged the Soviet North Fleet in a continuous and bloody stream of naval engagements, limiting Soviet resupply [6]. By July, a large bridgehead had been secured across the Litsa River.
Figure 25: Troops of the 2nd Mountain Division assault Soviet positions in Lapland, July 1941.
Difficulties began to mount once the front came to be established by mid-July, but Soviet troops were also similarly stretched as Silberfuchs went into action on the 27th of June. The initial assaults on Salla shared the same success stories as the rest of the Polarfuchs offensives, with the 5th Mountain Division managing to dislodge the Soviet defenders by the end of June, and the Finnish 3rd and 6th Divisions achieving even better progress than the Germans. The offensive against the railway lines kicked into action in late August following the slowing of progress, permitting resupply.
Fallschirmjäger assaults on the railroad supplying Nyam managed to isolate the Red Army’s 122nd Division, permitting its encirclement and destruction [7]. By September, the front lines had receded to the formidable pre-war Soviet defences and were at risk of stagnating again until news of the impending fall of Leningrad forced Red Army Colonel Roman Panin to divert troops to attempt to relieve the besieged city, hoping that the fortifications would act as a sufficient force multiplier.
Figure 26: Generalleutenant (later Field Marshal) Erwin Rommel, “The Arctic Fox”, commander of the task force which isolated Murmansk, strangling Soviet supply lines. [8]
Unfortunately, this also coincided with the decisive assaults on Murmansk itself, preceded by heavy bombardment by the Arktisflotte, which had managed to neutralise the Soviet North Fleet, at the cost of the Scarnhorst. Mannerheim finally conceded in October to permit an assault on Belomorsk to severe the main railway routes supplying Murmansk given the situation around Leningrad [9], and the three thrusts struck on 12th October 1941. Even though fierce street fighting in Murmansk, Kantalahti and Belomorsk persisted into December, with units having to be informed through poor communication networks that the war was effectively over by then, Goebbels addressed Germany on November 7th - the anniversary of the October Revolution - stating that “the struggle in Murmansk and Lapland has witnessed the strength of the Finnish and German peoples triumph over Bolshevism for all time.”
[1] Shout-out to DrakonFin for being a cool guy.
[2] The Germans thus have vaguely better intelligence, and perhaps more importantly, a slightly better understanding of the terrain, butterflying into manifestations of better performance, as we'll see.
[3] Wait for it... [8]
[4] See the update "The Rising Storm" for more details.
[5] Tied up in Crete and the Balkans in OTL. The zealous but inexperienced SS men are replaced by competent, experienced mountain troops, permitting a stronger first strike.
[6] Soviet counterattacks are severely hampered by the lack of naval support, especially since the Royal Navy isn't around to harangue the Kriegsmarine.
[7] Much like OTL, except the severance is permanent instead of temporary.
[8] I couldn't resist.
[9] Mannerheim nixed this in OTL due to mostly political reasons such as fear of US involvement (which doesn't exist in TTL) and the slowness of the Leningrad assault (which doesn't exactly exist either in TTL?).
This update was basically written in one night, so if there are any major glaring errors, please do point them out to me. I can't handwave poor terrain and lousy fighting conditions away, even with Rommel in the driver's seat (especially since this isn't really his sort of bag, but hey, a pun is a pun), hence why Murmansk doesn't actually fall sensu stricto, unlike -
- next update (this weekend...?): One guess.
As a student in one of the drinkingest countries on the face of the planet, I can't criticise you too much
Eagerly awaiting the next update so I have something decent to do to procrastinate from my own latest assignments!
Thanks for the sympathy, guys.Strangely, I find that an acceptable reason for delaying.
Marc A
===
Re: Germanic vs. German
Thank you, do stay on board!
As for the terminology? Not much. Just consider it Early Installment Weirdness, although Weber is a bit more relaxed than Hitler when it comes to broadening definitions of "German".
===
Re: Laval
Well, we haven't really heard much from France, but once Southeast Asia goes straight to hell (handbasket optional) you just might.
===
Re: What update?
THIS F____ING UPDATE
=======
DEVELOPMENT AND SACRIFICE
“The pressure of the East has always stood against us. We are now going to war to remove this pressure, to vanquish this eternal threat, to safeguard the happy and peaceful lives of future generations. And this time we perhaps have better chances to succeed than we ever did before. The Lord of Destiny, who holds the life of our people in His hands, shall guide us to final victory.”
Risto Ryti, President of Finland, announcing the Finnish declaration of war on the Soviet Union, following the Finno-German Treaty of Friendship [1].
Figure 22: Residents of Leningrad bury their fellow citizens during its protracted siege, 1941.
“The pressure of the East has always stood against us. We are now going to war to remove this pressure, to vanquish this eternal threat, to safeguard the happy and peaceful lives of future generations. And this time we perhaps have better chances to succeed than we ever did before. The Lord of Destiny, who holds the life of our people in His hands, shall guide us to final victory.”
Risto Ryti, President of Finland, announcing the Finnish declaration of war on the Soviet Union, following the Finno-German Treaty of Friendship [1].
Figure 22: Residents of Leningrad bury their fellow citizens during its protracted siege, 1941.
The second phase of Operation Barbarossa can broadly be defined by (in addition to the general halts on the Central and Southern fronts) the beginning of Finnish involvement in the Great Patriotic War (referred to in Finland as the Continuation War to signify continuity with the Winter War), as demonstrated by the aforementioned Battle of Tallinn Bay as well as the twin joint strikes at Murmansk in the north in Operation Arctic Fox, aimed at isolating and overrunning the warm-water port, and at Leningrad where the efforts of the Finnish Defence Forces and Army Group North would converge to achieve the capitulation of the Baltic port, which would cement the “strangulation” of Soviet Russia, and (hopefully) force Stalin to the negotiating table when confronted with the reality of no relief from the continent-scale siege.
The actions of the Finnish Defence Forces must be understood in the context of their overall diplomatic policy regarding the German Reich and the Soviet Union. While invasion paranoia and revanchist sentiments were at all-time highs, as was Finnish irredentism encapsulated in the concept of “Greater Finland” with its eastern border extended to the White Sea, engulfing the whole of Murmansk Oblast and Karelia, these ambitions did not extend southwards into Leningrad, explaining their reluctance to complete the encirclement of the city and Küchler’s bloody attempts to do it with only the resources of Army Group North. Furthermore, the Finnish public in general and Ryti in particular were sceptical – even disturbed – by the authoritarianism of the Tripartite and Anti-Comintern Pact powers, maintaining their democratic traditions even as war raged on. These factors thus further explain Finland’s co-belligerent status, short of any full alliance with the Reich.
Figure 23: Marshal Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim (extreme left), commander-in-chief of the Finnish Defence Forces, and President Risto Ryti of Finland (third from left) reviewing bicycle infantry.
The Finno-German Treaty of Friendship provided for sharing of military intelligence and weapons systems, building upon the secret military cooperation between Finland and Germany during the First Interim Peace. German munitions factories were able to study Soviet tanks during the Winter War and adjust the designs of newer Panzer IVs in response to Soviet armour, and Generalleutenant Erwin Rommel consulted with his counterpart General Hjalmar Siilasvuo regarding the challenges of local terrain, especially along the mountain ranges separating Finnish territory from Soviet Karelia in planning the Murmansk assault [2], Operation Polarfuchs (Arctic Fox) – the singular operation that would grant his wartime epithet along with his promotion to Field Marshal [3].
===
MURMANSK
The majority of the Heer contingent that would provide the northern thrust of Polarfuchs, Operation Platinfuchs (Platinum Fox), had been transported from the Free City of Narvik essentially covertly through Axis-leaning neutral Sweden, and by June Rommel had assembled the Narvik Corps consisting of two mountain divisions and additional regular regiments, which would be joined by a Finnish brigade to provide direction in the difficult terrain. Coastal support would be provided by the Arctic Fleet led by vessels Scarnhorst and Gneiseau, which would be opposed by the Soviet Northern Fleet [4]. Upon learning the difficulties involved, the experienced 5th Mountain Division was reassigned by Rommel to lead the thrust through Salla, Operation Silberfuchs (Silver Fox) coordinating with the Finnish 6th Division to complete the encirclement of Murmansk from the south by reaching Kantalahti on the coast. Paratrooper forces (Fallschirmjäger) were deployed to support Silberfuchs upon the outbreak of hostilities [5].
Figure 24: Map detailing the overall strategy of Operation Polarfuchs (Arctic Fox), the Finno-German offensive aimed at isolating and overrunning Murmansk.
Thus, on the 16th of June, following the initiation of Barbarossa and the border battles, Operation Rentier (Reindeer) went into action, with the Narvik Corps linking up with their Finnish counterparts, with Platinfuchs launching on the 22nd. The Soviet troops on the border were caught by surprise by the size of force which thundered across, with the 2nd Mountain Division capturing the Titovka Valley and the 3rd securing land access to the Rybachy Peninsula on the first day of operations. Although the terrain was unfamiliar, close coordination between Finnish and German forces ensured that momentum went ahead at an acceptable rate. Soviet counterattacks were blunted by the actions of the Arktisflotte, which engaged the Soviet North Fleet in a continuous and bloody stream of naval engagements, limiting Soviet resupply [6]. By July, a large bridgehead had been secured across the Litsa River.
Figure 25: Troops of the 2nd Mountain Division assault Soviet positions in Lapland, July 1941.
Difficulties began to mount once the front came to be established by mid-July, but Soviet troops were also similarly stretched as Silberfuchs went into action on the 27th of June. The initial assaults on Salla shared the same success stories as the rest of the Polarfuchs offensives, with the 5th Mountain Division managing to dislodge the Soviet defenders by the end of June, and the Finnish 3rd and 6th Divisions achieving even better progress than the Germans. The offensive against the railway lines kicked into action in late August following the slowing of progress, permitting resupply.
Fallschirmjäger assaults on the railroad supplying Nyam managed to isolate the Red Army’s 122nd Division, permitting its encirclement and destruction [7]. By September, the front lines had receded to the formidable pre-war Soviet defences and were at risk of stagnating again until news of the impending fall of Leningrad forced Red Army Colonel Roman Panin to divert troops to attempt to relieve the besieged city, hoping that the fortifications would act as a sufficient force multiplier.
Figure 26: Generalleutenant (later Field Marshal) Erwin Rommel, “The Arctic Fox”, commander of the task force which isolated Murmansk, strangling Soviet supply lines. [8]
Unfortunately, this also coincided with the decisive assaults on Murmansk itself, preceded by heavy bombardment by the Arktisflotte, which had managed to neutralise the Soviet North Fleet, at the cost of the Scarnhorst. Mannerheim finally conceded in October to permit an assault on Belomorsk to severe the main railway routes supplying Murmansk given the situation around Leningrad [9], and the three thrusts struck on 12th October 1941. Even though fierce street fighting in Murmansk, Kantalahti and Belomorsk persisted into December, with units having to be informed through poor communication networks that the war was effectively over by then, Goebbels addressed Germany on November 7th - the anniversary of the October Revolution - stating that “the struggle in Murmansk and Lapland has witnessed the strength of the Finnish and German peoples triumph over Bolshevism for all time.”
[1] Shout-out to DrakonFin for being a cool guy.
[2] The Germans thus have vaguely better intelligence, and perhaps more importantly, a slightly better understanding of the terrain, butterflying into manifestations of better performance, as we'll see.
[3] Wait for it... [8]
[4] See the update "The Rising Storm" for more details.
[5] Tied up in Crete and the Balkans in OTL. The zealous but inexperienced SS men are replaced by competent, experienced mountain troops, permitting a stronger first strike.
[6] Soviet counterattacks are severely hampered by the lack of naval support, especially since the Royal Navy isn't around to harangue the Kriegsmarine.
[7] Much like OTL, except the severance is permanent instead of temporary.
[8] I couldn't resist.
[9] Mannerheim nixed this in OTL due to mostly political reasons such as fear of US involvement (which doesn't exist in TTL) and the slowness of the Leningrad assault (which doesn't exactly exist either in TTL?).
=======
This update was basically written in one night, so if there are any major glaring errors, please do point them out to me.
I can't handwave poor terrain and lousy fighting conditions away, even with Rommel in the driver's seat (especially since this isn't really his sort of bag, but hey, a pun is a pun), hence why Murmansk doesn't actually fall sensu stricto, unlike -
- next update (this weekend...?): One guess.
Last edited:
Nice.
Wonder if Weber will meet with Mannerheim and part of the conversation may get recorded, like with what happened when Hitler met with Carl OTL.
Wonder if Weber will meet with Mannerheim and part of the conversation may get recorded, like with what happened when Hitler met with Carl OTL.
Great update Tom Colton.
It's Lenin.
Anyways, great update as always, Tom. Keep it up!
Ah, Rommel, the Curly Neal of the History Channel
And Leningrad should be nicely horrifying.
And Leningrad should be nicely horrifying.
The loss of Murmansk to the Germans is a HUGE blow to the Soviet war effort, since the western Allies now don't have a port to send military supplies to the Soviet Union. In short, the Russians will have to rely a lot more on their indigenous weapon systems (e.g., no or very few Hawker Hurricanes or Bell P-39's) to take on the Germans.