Weaker Ottoman Empire post 1500?

[Sargon]

Guys, perhaps it's best to drop it? It's only getting more bad tempered and it's clear at this stage that people aren't going to agree? Maybe take some time out and do something nice like enjoy an ice cream or somesuch, eh? If you were here, I would prepare one of Sai's lovely recipes for ye all.

<deploys Serenity of Sargon>


Sargon

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

They had at least some informal say in the matter, I thought-- it was a parental choice, like boarding school, except with more focus on cannonfire, leadership skills, and stabbing Frenchmen.

From what it sounds like here, the teens or parents don't really have much of a choice in the matter. They can voice complaints and bring up arguments for or against joining the Janissary corps, but, in the end, officials could ignore all that and decide what they want, right?

How many 12-year olds do you think are qualified to make life decisions? Many, are there?

You do realize we're talking about the 14th c, right? Again, choice: shovel sheep shit for your short and brutal life, or become a member of the ruling class of a huge empire. Again, the Ottomans had to turn people away. In large numbers. No surprise.

I am so sick of this fucking useless discussion that I'm leaving it. You can all masturbate over visions of Hagia Sophia as a Church, I'm out of here. Don't any of you PM me about any of your Ottoman TL's. I don't care, and I don't want to hear it.

 

[Sargon]

Don't any of you PM me about any of your Ottoman TL's. I don't care, and I don't want to hear it.

What, not even me if I had one?

I've been reading up on stuff as well, I was considering such a project, but I need to write other stuff first.


Sargon

 

[New Potomac]

A You have totally failed to respond logically to anything that I've said, after I've taken the time to explain it to you, and just spout this stupid and unsupported, "Duh, they was slaves!" line. You're either too stupid to understand what a slave is, or just plain unwilling to accept that anything about the Ottomans could possibly stray beyond pathetic Victorian stereotypes. Back to the ignore list with a useless poster. Get a clue.

Now now, lets just agree to disagree or drink it all away

But onto the actual discussion topic. The best way to make sure the Ottomans are weakened is to either make the Byzantines more powerful, or too get something that can properly counter them when they collapse. I don't really believe there is anything that can counter them in the 1500's.

Edit: Then again it appears the topic has failed completely.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

What, not even me if I had one?


Sargon

You can ask me questions or for input, but I'm not reading any threads about the subject. I just don't want to participate. Why bother? I know 100 times more about the Ottoman Empire than anyone else, nobody ever has anything to contribute except bigoted nationalist bullshit, and all I do is type the same four posts refuting the same old crap that is flung all over the place, for what, eight years now? Why on earth would I waste any more time an energy on this when there's a whole real world out there to spend time in instead?

What kind of a bonehead would spend several pages repeating over and over again that people that weren't slaves were slaves? Seriously, I'd have a more stimulating conversation with a feral cat.

 

[Ofaloaf]

How many 12-year olds do you think are qualified to make life decisions? Many, are there?

You do realize we're talking about the 14th c, right? Again, choice: shovel sheep shit for your short and brutal life, or become a member of the ruling class of a huge empire. Again, the Ottomans had to turn people away. In large numbers. No surprise.

Nono, I know that 12-year-olds aren't the best at making their own life decisions. I-- bad at being coherent in what I was trying to say, I guess. I know little of either, but would like to know more. I had thought that 18th/19th-century midshipmen went because of their parents or relatives, and choices were made there in a similar fashion to how families would debate the merits of a boarding school or some such. Decisions regarding the janissary corps were ultimately up to officials-- closer to a conscription board, I suppose-- and, even though a family could petition all they want, little Besnik's fate was ultimately up to Ottoman administrators. Not saying that they were slaves.

Am I wrong, there? I'm honestly still struggling with elements of Ottoman history.

I am so sick of this fucking useless discussion that I'm leaving it. You can all masturbate over visions of Hagia Sophia as a Church, I'm out of here. Don't any of you PM me about any of your Ottoman TL's. I don't care, and I don't want to hear it.

Yessir.

 

[Sargon]

You can ask me questions or for input, but I'm not reading any threads about the subject. I just don't want to participate. Why bother? I know 100 times more about the Ottoman Empire than anyone else, nobody ever has anything to contribute except bigoted nationalist bullshit, and all I do is type the same four posts refuting the same old crap that is flung all over the place, for what, eight years now? Why on earth would I waste any more time an energy on this when there's a whole real world out there to spend time in instead?

What kind of a bonehead would spend several pages repeating over and over again that people that weren't slaves were slaves? Seriously, I'd have a more stimulating conversation with a feral cat.

Well, that's OK then. But as your friend, I feel I must say something now.

It is clearly obvious this site is really getting to you a lot most of the times you are here, even when you have, as I have suggested, avoided Chat. I've always been one of those to often persuade you to stay here, so that we don't lose your knowledge, which can and is very useful in this particular area. So I'm party to blame for all this in a way. Whilst we sometimes have disagreements about certain things, these forums would be poorer without particular aspects you bring here.

I think the time has come for you to give up this place and stop coming as it is not worth it if it is really making you so upset. It's not doing you any good, and I don't want to see this affect you any further and the threads that have developed, which I'm sure you'd agree are sadly getting bad tempered on all sides.

This hasn't been easy for me to say since I'd LIKE you to stay of course, but things have got to a stage where seeing as you cease to get any enjoyment out of posting here now, it's probably best to cut your losses.

If it's any crumb of comfort, I'm more active over at my own forums than I have been for a while, and we can always meet at Grey Wolf's if you don't want to go there.


Sargon

 

[Nikephoros]

And I tried my best to have an adult discussion with you, but you are impervious to actual discussion with your reflexive anti-Ottoman nonsense. You have totally failed to respond logically to anything that I've said, after I've taken the time to explain it to you, and just spout this stupid and unsupported, "Duh, they was slaves!" line. You're either too stupid to understand what a slave is, or just plain unwilling to accept that anything about the Ottomans could possibly stray beyond pathetic Victorian stereotypes. Back to the ignore list with a useless poster. Get a clue.

I'd report this little trash flaming post, but since you have no desire to stay here anyways, It'd be pointless. Also because I don't report people for attacking me. Only for attacking others, besides the usual (Trolls, Islamphobes, Homophobes, Racists)

 

[Sargon]

I'd report this little trash flaming post, but since you have no desire to stay here anyways, It'd be pointless. Also because I don't report people for attacking me. Only for attacking others, besides the usual (Trolls, Islamphobes, Homophobes, Racists)

Please old chap, let's just drop it. It's not helping, eh?

How about I get everyone in this thread a drink in the AH.com Bar?


Sargon

 

[Nikephoros]

Please old chap, let's just drop it. It's not helping, eh?

How about I get everyone in this thread a drink in the AH.com Bar?


Sargon

I had actually bowed out of the thread before his little tirade, but I saw you post here, so I decided to jump back in.

BTW, I am serious about not reporting that, and I'd rather no one reports it either.

 

[New Potomac]

it seems everyone has been infected with Mutual unhappiness

 

[Ward]

You can ask me questions or for input, but I'm not reading any threads about the subject. I just don't want to participate. Why bother? I know 100 times more about the Ottoman Empire than anyone else, nobody ever has anything to contribute except bigoted nationalist bullshit, and all I do is type the same four posts refuting the same old crap that is flung all over the place, for what, eight years now? Why on earth would I waste any more time an energy on this when there's a whole real world out there to spend time in instead?

What kind of a bonehead would spend several pages repeating over and over again that people that weren't slaves were slaves? Seriously, I'd have a more stimulating conversation with a feral cat.

Where did you get your PhD in Ottoman History from .
And maybe a lot more people would actually listen to your statements if you stop insulting them . Like you did in this statement " I know 100 times more about the Ottoman Empire than anyone else, nobody ever has anything to contribute except bigoted nationalist bullshit, "
At one time I was interested in Ottoman History But reading what you have written on it for almost 6 Years , You have turned me off from its history and I no longer want anything to do with it .
I wounder how many other members of the Board you have turned off from Ottoman History in the last 8 years .

And next time you post that slavery was a good thing please post your references . And Please do not use sources from the people forcing the people into slavery . That would be like myself using CSA sources That keeping Black's as Slaves was just fine with the average Black Slave .

 

[Nikephoros]

Where did you get your PhD in Ottoman History from .
And maybe a lot more people would actually listen to your statements if you stop insulting them . Like you did in this statement " I know 100 times more about the Ottoman Empire than anyone else, nobody ever has anything to contribute except bigoted nationalist bullshit, "
At one time I was interested in Ottoman History But reading what you have written on it for almost 6 Years , You have turned me off from its history and I no longer want anything to do with it .
I wounder how many other members of the Board you have turned off from Ottoman History in the last 8 years .

And next time you post that slavery was a good thing please post your references . And Please do not use sources from the people forcing the people into slavery . That would be like myself using CSA sources That keeping Black's as Slaves was just fine with the average Slave .

I'm gonna PM you my reply. This thread's bad enough as it is (I could have handled it better though).

 

[Leo Caesius]

Where did you get your PhD in Ottoman History from .
At one time I was interested in Ottoman History But reading what you have written on it for almost 6 Years , You have turned me off from its history and I no longer want anything to do with it .
I wounder how many other members of the Board you have turned off from Ottoman History in the last 8 years .

This isn't so much directed at Ward as it is at anyone who might potentially feel this way about a particular subject.

The fact of the matter is that you must always been prepared for some degree of contention and disagreement over something as fundamentally subjective as history. One certainly cannot expect 100% agreement, and realistically the level of agreement will be much, much lower for certain subjects.

That having been said, if you allow a single person to dominate your likes and dislikes so thoroughly as to destroy your interest in an entire subject, then either you were not very interested in that subject to begin with, or you are simply a very easily manipulated person.

Of course, the possibility still exists that you were never interested in the subject to begin with, but are using this opportunity to take a cheap shot at AHP. It really shouldn't matter what he thinks or for that matter what I think, but I would like to believe that we could discuss these issues without the discussion devolving into personal shots. When that happens, the best course of action is either to leave or simply to ignore the party making the personal shots. I do not advise you to swear that you'll never bother with a subject again because of what someone said to you online, nor would I advise you to dump a big bucket of gasoline upon the thread in question.

 

[Nikephoros]

nor would I advise you to dump a big bucket of gasoline upon the thread in question.

That's my job.

 

[Keenir]

Maybe take some time out and do something nice like enjoy an ice cream or somesuch, eh? If you were here, I would prepare one of Sai's lovely recipes for ye all.

<deploys Serenity of Sargon>


Sargon

I gladly accept the offer of ice cream. (more especially if it is one of Sai's recipies, or at least one that she likes)

thank you both.

for the modern state of Greece. (Okay, I like their women,)

We can agree on that at least.

Its almost frightening that 4/5 pages in this tread have little to do with the OP, but have rather desintegrated into argument over who the Ottomans are, and their place in history. And the occasional nationalistic stuff.

welcome to the forum.

 

[Ward]

This isn't so much directed at Ward as it is at anyone who might potentially feel this way about a particular subject.

The fact of the matter is that you must always been prepared for some degree of contention and disagreement over something as fundamentally subjective as history. One certainly cannot expect 100% agreement, and realistically the level of agreement will be much, much lower for certain subjects.

That having been said, if you allow a single person to dominate your likes and dislikes so thoroughly as to destroy your interest in an entire subject, then either you were not very interested in that subject to begin with, or you are simply a very easily manipulated person.

Of course, the possibility still exists that you were never interested in the subject to begin with, but are using this opportunity to take a cheap shot at AHP. It really shouldn't matter what he thinks or for that matter what I think, but I would like to believe that we could discuss these issues without the discussion devolving into personal shots. When that happens, the best course of action is either to leave or simply to ignore the party making the personal shots. I do not advise you to swear that you'll never bother with a subject again because of what someone said to you online, nor would I advise you to dump a big bucket of gasoline upon the thread in question.

Leo I just stated I want his sources were he gets his information From .
If I wanted to take a cheep shot at AHP I would go after him with something more damning then this thread .

I think he needs to stop thinking he that much better then everyone else .
That he believes he is 100 times better then anyone else is BS and you know it . He might have 10 times better knowledge on Ottoman History then any one else on the Board but not 100 times like he said .
A lot of us have understanding on a subject but do you see us Claim to have 100 time more understanding then he dose . He is rude to most people and he talks down to them .

 

[Ibn Warraq]

Leo I just stated I want his sources were he gets his information From .
If I wanted to take a cheep shot at AHP I would go after him with something more damning then this thread .

I think he needs to stop thinking he that much better then everyone else .
That he believes he is 100 times better then anyone else is BS and you know it . He might have 10 times better knowledge on Ottoman History then any one else on the Board but not 100 times like he said.

He was being hyperbolic. I thought he was being unnecessarily aggressive with Nik, but I don't think insulting him helps matters.

 

[Ibn Warraq]

Pleace say that to Mpundit. Slavery in Islam isn't even possible to begin with.

Muhammad would definitely disagree with you.

Slavery is very possible amongst all the Abrahamic religions and it's something that was either condoned or practiced by Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad.

 

[Nikephoros]

He was being hyperbolic. I thought he was being unnecessarily aggressive with Nik, but I don't think insulting him helps matters.

Eh, I've better things to worry about.