How can you have the Ottomans remain a mid-level power with a POD somewhere between 1500 and 1520? By mid level I mean strong enough to maintain a degree of order in the Balkans and Anatolia (and maybe further afield), but too weak to be a direct and constant headache for western Europeans...
Weaker Ottoman Empire post 1500?
- Thread starter Basileus Giorgios
- Start date
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
There's no realistic POD that would cause this. They're already a huge power that's a constant headache for Europe. You always seem to want to take the empire when it's at its absolute peak of power and come up with some way to stop that. There's just nobody and nothing outside of a comet hitting Istanbul that would cause the empire at this point to become a minor power. If you could find some way to get all the countries in Europe, Iran, and Egypt to all gang up on the Ottomans, then sure, but that just can't ever happen.
Paul MacQ
Donor
In the year 1500 they are one of the Super Powers, how do you mean weak enough ??
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No! Ofcourse they weren't. They were perhaps the single strongest state in Europe and the Middle East during the 16th century. They could be weakened by a dynastic crisis and foreign interventions but that would probably only be temporary considering how large and well organised the Empire was at that time. The quick conquest of the entire Middle East and Egypt during Selim's reign (which happened during this period) is a perfect example of the amount of financial and human resources the Ottoman Empire had at it's disposal. It was almost unparalled west of China.
Do I? As far as I know, I've only ever posted one Ottoman-shrinking based post; this one.
And if I may, AHP, you always seem to deny that there's any realistic POD that could stop the Ottomans at any point in their history whatsoever. Please at least have a think about your own immensly biased views before being so needlessly aggressive towards what I think was a fairly innocuous question.
In summary, please don't make that kind of statement at me. Cheers!
Behold the glory that is the Sublime Ottoman State!
Now, how significant was Egypt in the Empire's economy? How plausible would an egyptian dynasty establishing itself around 1500, and being a thorn in their side? And Selim not conquering right after?
Also, your (BG's) post sounds like you want a POD between 1500 and 1520 that makes them remain a medium power, one might argue that before 1500 they were already powerful, they attempted an invasion of Italy after all.
Nikephoros
Banned
Do I? As far as I know, I've only ever posted one Ottoman-shrinking based post; this one.
And if I may, AHP, you always seem to deny that there's any realistic POD that could stop the Ottomans at any point in their history whatsoever. Please at least have a think about your own immensly biased views before being so needlessly aggressive towards what I think was a fairly innocuous question.
In summary, please don't make that kind of statement at me. Cheers!
Now you know how argueing with people who think that Rome can conquer all of Persia makes me feel.
Actually though, I remember a thread positing a more successful Timur. You posted a map that had the Ottos reduced to a "Macedonian Sultanate". That's also an Otto-shrinking post, IIRC.
Nikephoros
Banned
While I can't answer that question (Pretty much anything between the fall of Constantinople to the 30 years war is a gap in my head) Egypt was a very economically significant place at least into the 1300s. Of course, that economic significange rarely went along with political power, so I guess an Egyptian dynasty is at least possible
Do I? As far as I know, I've only ever posted one Ottoman-shrinking based post; this one.
And if I may, AHP, you always seem to deny that there's any realistic POD that could stop the Ottomans at any point in their history whatsoever. Please at least have a think about your own immensly biased views before being so needlessly aggressive towards what I think was a fairly innocuous question.
In summary, please don't make that kind of statement at me. Cheers!
You've made some mistakes that kinda make you deserve it though.
1) You didn't consider the snarky frustration that is Pasha which was made by years of combating Ottoman-skepticisms, many of which have been of spectacular kinds. There is a correct way to overcome a siege mentality.
2) ...And that would be certainly NOT by picking the freaking wrong timeframe for your kind of proposal, which unfortunately was a defining aspect of a kind of Ottoman-skepticism Pasha has been combating against all this time. Also, poor Timur he needs more love.....
Though indeed, Pasha's rudeness is more understandable than justified.
In AH.com though, ignorance is more of a sin than a bliss.
Keenir
Banned
in no particular order, a few of their OTL problems in that century:
- massive financial problems (thanks to all the New World gold the Spanish were flooding the markets with)
- uprisings in the Balkans and Anatolia
- the wives were plotting
- ...as were the brothers
- the Ottomans' allies keep abandoning them in battle
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Do I? As far as I know, I've only ever posted one Ottoman-shrinking based post; this one.
And if I may, AHP, you always seem to deny that there's any realistic POD that could stop the Ottomans at any point in their history whatsoever. Please at least have a think about your own immensly biased views before being so needlessly aggressive towards what I think was a fairly innocuous question.
In summary, please don't make that kind of statement at me. Cheers!
Oh, please. I often explain the best way to dismantle the empire when it's likely or possible. There is a plethora of threads from 1450-1550 that are "what if the Ottomans were totally destroyed?", or the alternative, "What if the Ottomans conquered Italy (or Vienna)" which posters then inevitably claim would cause the speedy destruction of the empire.I'd like you to back up your ridiculous claim that my views are immensely biased. Because 99 out of 100 of my timelines don't result in Istanbul and the Aegean coast of Asia Minor going to Greece? Or am I biased because I actually know what I'm talking about instead of just parroting bigoted Victorian-era assessments of the Ottomans that everyone seems to depend on in lieu of actual history?
How many TL's are there where Britain or France are destroyed in the 16th c? How many where the colonial empires are smaller or dismantled earlier?
The Ottomans were not some horde of horsemen ruling over massive Christian populations, they were a real state with great administrative depth and vitality. The Balkans were the center of their power, with a very large Muslim population there supporting it, with a well-run and powerful central administration and military. The likelihood of anything drastic happening to them at that point is vanishingly small. If you want a weak Ottoman Empire you'll just have to take action earlier or later.
There is no POD between 1500-1520 that will work. The panacea "dynastic crisis" isn't it. There was exactly one dynastic crisis in the entire history of the empire, caused by Timur's destruction of the entire army along with the Sultan and most likely heir. Under normal circumstances, the ruling class lined up behind a candidate and had no toleration for dynastic struggle whatsoever. It just didn't happen.
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Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
You've made some mistakes that kinda make you deserve it though.
1) You didn't consider the snarky frustration that is Pasha which was made by years of combating Ottoman-skepticisms, many of which have been of spectacular kinds. There is a correct way to overcome a siege mentality.
2) ...And that would be certainly NOT by picking the freaking wrong timeframe for your kind of proposal, which unfortunately was a defining aspect of a kind of Ottoman-skepticism Pasha has been combating against all this time. Also, poor Timur he needs more love.....
Though indeed, Pasha's rudeness is more understandable than justified.
In AH.com though, ignorance is more of a sin than a bliss.
I'm not sure how "rude" that was, but I will say that I confused Basileus Giorgios with Don Giorgio.
Sorry about that.cbrunish
Banned
As an Eastern Orthodox, I would love to see a TL that shows the Ottoman's being destroyed early or to never have existed!! But by the late 1400's and early 1500's they were just too powerful. They had the best and strongest military along with a superb political structure. The rest of Europe was too fractured. It just can't happen.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
As an Eastern Orthodox, I would love to see a TL that shows the Ottoman's being destroyed early or to never have existed!! But by the late 1400's and early 1500's they were just too powerful. They had the best and strongest military along with a superb political structure. The rest of Europe was too fractured. It just can't happen.
I'm always amazed at this attitude. As an Eastern Orthodox, you should thank the Ottomans for revitalizing and protecting Eastern Orthodoxy. The Byzantines utterly failed to defend Orthodox lands against Latin powers, who when the Ottomans emerged ruled most of the Greek-speaking world and were gradually assimilating and destroying it. Constantinople was in ruins, with a tiny population, the roofs of buildings having been stripped for metal, decaying and suffering water damage.
The Ottomans placed all Orthodox Christians in all the former Byzantine lands and beyond under the authority of the Patriarchate for the first time in centuries and allowed a cultural revival and the preservation of a culture that might otherwise have disappeared. Plus, they gave you much better cuisine, and coffee.
So think about that! Notaras was quite right when he said "Better a Sultan's turban than a cardinal's cap!" One preserved Orthodox Christian culture and the other wanted to end it.
cbrunish
Banned
I suppose the turks, whom took Orthodox children and converted them into the islamic faith was really good for them. Now these children would be able to achieve paradise dying for the Sultan as janissaries. Great!!
And the genocide of Armenians probably did not happen, huh?
I would much rather be under a papist than a muslim any day!!!!!!!!!
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
I suppose the turks, whom took Orthodox children and converted them into the islamic faith was really good for them. Now these children would be able to achieve paradise dying for the Sultan as janissaries. Great!!
And the genocide of Armenians probably did not happen, huh?
I would much rather be under a papist than a muslim any day!!!!!!!!!
Oh, good, another Islamophobic prick. Ignored as useless. When you guys grow up and out of your pathetic nationalist fantasies, let me know.