Ways for the Nazi Reich to survive W/OUT total victory?

Is there anyway for the Nazi government to remain in control of Germany without total victory against the allies?
The idea I have for an outcome would be some sort of Germany where, after the Nazis take over, Hitler dies (either from natural causes or assasination), and more moderate members of the party take control. This could be before the war or during it. Whatever peace that comes after is more out of a stalemate.
One plus would be for Nazi racial doctrine to be dropped, either from internal or external pressures.
Another plus would be to have the Nazi regime survive to the present day, gradually liberalizing from stricter policies of the past.
 

terence

Banned
Is there anyway for the Nazi government to remain in control of Germany without total victory against the allies?
The idea I have for an outcome would be some sort of Germany where, after the Nazis take over, Hitler dies (either from natural causes or assasination), and more moderate members of the party take control. This could be before the war or during it. Whatever peace that comes after is more out of a stalemate.
One plus would be for Nazi racial doctrine to be dropped, either from internal or external pressures.
Another plus would be to have the Nazi regime survive to the present day, gradually liberalizing from stricter policies of the past.

This has been the subject of several novels. The problem--who was a moderate Nazi?
If one looks at the July plotters plan for a post-Hitler Germany, it only planned to swop the top Nazis with Far-right wing nationalist Army Officers. They thought about keeping Speer-- who was really a party outsider.
Look at them.
Goering--because he came from an upper-class background was considered a moderate in the 1930s, but he was instrumental in setting up the Gestapo and the (not-extermination) Concentration Camps.
Goebbels represented the Left wing of the NSDAP-- with the accent on the socialism and would have tried eliminating the capitalist part of the German economy making enemies of the people who really put the NAzis into power.
Himmler--well, a space cadet really totally wedded to the racial policies.
The Gauleiters, who controlled the rank and file of the party were mainly 'old-fighters'--all died-in-the-wool anti-semites.
The 'second generation' of Nazis represented by the likes of Heydrich and von Shirach were better educated, but had, if anything, more extreme philosophy.
The NSDAP needed race enemies as surely as communism needed class enemies. A scaled back Nazi party would look a bit like the Falangists.
When Stalin died the Bolsheviks became more liberal. Beria was bumped off,
millions rehabilitated from the Gulag and some of the worst excesses of the regime admitted. But people under Russian domination didn't get much of an improvement to their lot for another 50 years.

You might work on one theme.
Communism/Fascism/Nationalism were all reactions to the failiure of capitalism. Fascism itself was a reaction to the Bolshevik revolutions and Liberal-Socialist. In the 1930s, Fascism appeared to be a workable system and it operated in more countries than one usually thinks.
At the start of WW2 the only democratic ( by modern standards) governments in Europe were Britain, France, the Scandinavian and Benelux countries. Poor, long-suffering Poland, Yugoslavia, Greece, Bulgaria, Hungary were Fascist as was Italy, Spain and Portugal. There was no democracy in the independent countries of Asia ( Chang Kai Shek's regime was typically fascist) and most South American countries adopted the system.
Fascism seemed to work--for a while and must have looked pretty good to those guys on bread lines during the Depression.
 
latest possible pod for the Germans to force a stalemate is late 1942... even assuming defeat at Aleimein and Stalingrad, the Germans could with a highly organized and well thought out defense (ie retreat in Africa to the Wadi Akrit line like Rommel wanted) and hold tight and don't attack at Kursk (Manstein's back hand blow)
 
Fascism seemed to work--for a while and must have looked pretty good to those guys on bread lines during the Depression.
Except when they tried to stage demostrations against the regime and were tortured for it.

Back on topic: any stalemate will result with the nazis in control of Germany. Make the Germans resist the Soviet offensives better (Manstein's backhand blow, as mentioned, might be a way to achieve it), not declare war on the USA and finally sign a cease-fire with the USSR before the Americans manage to get involved. You might have a negotiated peace with the UK then and there you have.
Racial doctrines wouldn't be dropped for decades though.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Hitler dies before ´39 (but after '33). The probability of WW2 just went down. With no WW2, Crazy Nazi Germany could unfortunately survive.
 
I think the basic pattern needs a less successful Axis in the first part of the war:

the patterns of strategic thinking cultivated until the thirties were very effectively broken in 1940 with the fall of France.

And if Japan is less successful in the Far East, we might see something very different: How willing would the american public be to finance a war without the "remember Pearl Harbour" cry? A different Japanese opening move, or a different american public reaction might rather see Roosevelt going out or losing influence.
 
I think the basic pattern needs a less successful Axis in the first part of the war:

the patterns of strategic thinking cultivated until the thirties were very effectively broken in 1940 with the fall of France.

And if Japan is less successful in the Far East, we might see something very different: How willing would the american public be to finance a war without the "remember Pearl Harbour" cry? A different Japanese opening move, or a different american public reaction might rather see Roosevelt going out or losing influence.

A good idea actually.

What if the Japanese force at Pearl Harbour loses surprise is and repulsed with far smaller American casualties but massive Japanese casualties (not just the downed planes, but say half the carrier force sunk, the rest damaged and scattered). Would USA be as ready to go to the all-out Pacific war?
 
Yes, preventing WW2 would be the surest card. Other than that, a quick "victory in the west" with Britain giving up the fight after Dunqueque or the BoB and no Barbarossa might've worked.

On the positive side, there would probably not be an holocaust, rather a mass expulsion if there is no eastern front. Nazism would probably gradually fade away after a few decades.
 
What if Hitler dies at the VERY begining of the war, say in 1939-1940...
Then you might have more compitent men running the show, and quite possibly be able to avoid Opperation Barbarossa.

My pick would be for Speer to take over...maybe have Hitler, Himler, and Goebbles killed in some accident, and Speer take over?
It strikes me that if this happen, there would be no final solution. Racial discrimination would continue, with expulsion and or slave labor likely. Would be interesting to see The Nazis on the side of the Allies against the USSR. IF this sort of alliance were to form, I think it plausible that the Nazis would be forced to eventually liberalize, albiet slowly, to stay in the good graces of their new found allies.
 
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