Wasted Tributaries of the World

Whether it is Mesopotamia, China, Egypt, or the Indus Valley, civilization seems to be encouraged by the existence of large rivers. Now here is the question, what rivers could have spawned civilizations like independent Egypt?
Preferably we are talking about Pre-500 B.C.E. a good location is all that needs to be answered but a plausible mode for civilization to begin to grow (such as a specific powerful tribe/kingdom, etc) would be nice.
The first thing that jumps to mind as I think about this question is the Volga River, but I am looking forward to hearing what other people think.
 
I would think, had time been on the side of the Tainui Iwi, the Waikato River would have become the focus of a unified Maori kingdom and culture.

Time of course was not on their side though and outside some sort of mad goings on in the rest of the world, they never would.

Perhaps the best the Tainui/Maori could get is a hands off protectorate in place for long enough that they were in practice immovable, regardless of intent. This means, in practice, that the Tainui need enough time to integrate the Eurasian crop package (and animals) into their civilisation and reverse the demographic collapse that occurred after Contact
 
Whether it is Mesopotamia, China, Egypt, or the Indus Valley, civilization seems to be encouraged by the existence of large rivers. Now here is the question, what rivers could have spawned civilizations like independent Egypt?
Preferably we are talking about Pre-500 B.C.E. a good location is all that needs to be answered but a plausible mode for civilization to begin to grow (such as a specific powerful tribe/kingdom, etc) would be nice.
The first thing that jumps to mind as I think about this question is the Volga River, but I am looking forward to hearing what other people think.

The Volga basin is awfully cold, though. Most early civilizations were subtropical.

What about the Mississippi?
 
How about the Niger River valley? An organized sedentary community only emerged in the 9th century and largely depended on trading gold to the Arabs.
 
The Volga basin is awfully cold, though. Most early civilizations were subtropical.

What about the Mississippi?

Seems like I heard in another thread that there's been more and more evidence that there was a sedentary culture around the lower Mississippi. I'm sure it would have eventually developed into a full-blown civilization if it had enough time. Nobody knew about it until recently because it was apparently wiped out in the first wave of Old World diseases before explorers even got there to document it.
 

Winnabago

Banned
I already have a civilization developing along the Amazon (where especially it’s the only way to travel).

Other possibilities, maybe the Red River, or a much earlier Ganges civilization as opposed to an Indus one?

I like the idea of a Rhine civilization.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I've always thought that the Amerindians could've built some pretty kickass civilizations in the Mississippi/Ohio valleys had they not hunted all potential beasts of burden to extinction.
 
I've always thought that the Amerindians could've built some pretty kickass civilizations in the Mississippi/Ohio valleys had they not hunted all potential beasts of burden to extinction.

Eh, assuming that we sealed the Americas from the rest of the world in 1491, some pretty kickass civilizations would have developed north of the Rio Grande. It may have taken longer without beasts of burden, but if the peoples of the Andes and Mesoamerica could do it, so could these people. They just needed more time to continue to breed plants that could provide the clothing and food necessary to support them.

And of course, the Pueblo and Mississippians were pretty kick-ass, so OTL has that.
 
Eh, assuming that we sealed the Americas from the rest of the world in 1491, some pretty kickass civilizations would have developed north of the Rio Grande. It may have taken longer without beasts of burden, but if the peoples of the Andes and Mesoamerica could do it, so could these people. They just needed more time to continue to breed plants that could provide the clothing and food necessary to support them.

And of course, the Pueblo and Mississippians were pretty kick-ass, so OTL has that.

And keep in mind that developing North American civilizations would have eventually come in contact with the Mesoamerican civilizations, and would have been able to trade knowledge and technology with them.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
Rio de la Plata, Paraguay and Uruguay River > South America

this is the most strange, the Guarani had big and fertile river, and in modern days this area very productive and fertile, but they did not develop cities.

Murray > Australia

(Land of Red and Gold TL)

Pearl River > Guangdong
Red River > Vietnam
Mekong > Vietnam
Irrawaddy > Burma

in OTL the last four only import agriculture / civilization from china / india instead develop their own.
 
this is the most strange, the Guarani had big and fertile river, and in modern days this area very productive and fertile, but they did not develop cities.

Well, if a land is bountiful enough, the people living there really don't have any internal incentive to start farming. Agriculture isn't necessary to their survival since there is more than enough to sustain them through hunting and gathering. This is the case for the Mediterranean climate zones of California.
 
Whether it is Mesopotamia, China, Egypt, or the Indus Valley, civilization seems to be encouraged by the existence of large rivers.

I always wondered whether this was in fact true, or if it merely seems to be true because that's what the historians like to focus on. Most of the American civilizations, apart from the Mississippians, didn't seem to be focused on large rivers. Also, there are older sedentary societies in the Middle East that aren't based on rivers... Eastern Anatolia, Levant... Okay, Jericho is on the Jordan, but would that be considered a large river?
 
I think this is a stretch, but I'll throw the Amur river into the pot. I could just about imagine an earlier spread of agriculture/stockraising from early northeast China/south Manchuria -- the exact source culture depending on how early you want to force the timeline, anywhere from the Neolithic up through say the state of Yan. Add the bountiful fisheries and majestic firs (and crossdressing lumberjacks?) and you've got the possibility of a pretty rich economy that could lend itself to the formation of chiefdoms and early states.

The climate is not especially salubrious, but neither is that of the north China plain, if you ask me. Flooding would be a major problem along many parts of the river, is a bigger objection.
 
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