Wasserfalls and Me-262s

Not ready until after the war in 1945...which really can't be pushed forward more AFAIK because it was already needed to fight the Me262, so was being rushed as is.

Not singling out comrade Wiking in particular here, but this is one of the things that ticks me off about AH. People look at who the Allies were fighting in WW2, and decide that a particular project or piece of technology would have some significant effect on their performance. They then devote a great deal of effort to finding a way to push forward the development of that thing, handwaving away objections by pointing at poor decisions or inefficiency or anything else that hampered it's introduction. This is not, in itself, a bad thing - if it's done plausibly, there's nothing wrong with it.
But the moment anyone suggests the Allies doing something similar, even as a response to the above, there are a thousand unassailable reasons why they couldn't really do any better than OTL, and wouldn't know what to do with it anyway. I just find it really strange that we can give the Germans or the Japanese guided missiles, advanced aircraft or submarines, or whatever the latest toy is a few years early and watch them wreak havoc on the hapless Allies; but for some reason we can't give the Allies Vampire fighters in 1943, or bring out the Centurion in time for D-Day. It's the inconsistency that bothers me most.
 

Deleted member 1487

Not singling out comrade Wiking in particular here, but this is one of the things that ticks me off about AH. People look at who the Allies were fighting in WW2, and decide that a particular project or piece of technology would have some significant effect on their performance. They then devote a great deal of effort to finding a way to push forward the development of that thing, handwaving away objections by pointing at poor decisions or inefficiency or anything else that hampered it's introduction. This is not, in itself, a bad thing - if it's done plausibly, there's nothing wrong with it.
But the moment anyone suggests the Allies doing something similar, even as a response to the above, there are a thousand unassailable reasons why they couldn't really do any better than OTL, and wouldn't know what to do with it anyway. I just find it really strange that we can give the Germans or the Japanese guided missiles, advanced aircraft or submarines, or whatever the latest toy is a few years early and watch them wreak havoc on the hapless Allies; but for some reason we can't give the Allies Vampire fighters in 1943, or bring out the Centurion in time for D-Day. It's the inconsistency that bothers me most.

To my knowledge the British jet technology couldn't be pushed forward more than it was, just like German jets, which was rushed into action before it was really ready, but had started their research before with more money than the British. It would take another POD to push British jet technology forward and there really wasn't a way to do so without something happening much earlier that is outside the scope of this POD...if you have a logical suggestion please educate me.
I know exactly what you're talking about, but much of the Allied responses that members counter post require a separate POD that a German POD won't logically, AFAIK in most cases, speed up as a counter.
 
To my knowledge the British jet technology couldn't be pushed forward more than it was, just like German jets, which was rushed into action before it was really ready, but had started their research before with more money than the British. It would take another POD to push British jet technology forward and there really wasn't a way to do so without something happening much earlier that is outside the scope of this POD...if you have a logical suggestion please educate me.
I know exactly what you're talking about, but much of the Allied responses that members counter post require a separate POD that a German POD won't logically, AFAIK in most cases, speed up as a counter.

Wich is why I started a thread on it. Superiority is like money, you allways want more. Meteor F3 in 43 and Nene Vampires in 44 would give the RAF the kind of overkill that breaks the enemy morale and strengh. And Gunnarz is right. Everybody jumps in on German wonder weapons and nobody cares about better/earlier allied weapons. Maybe it's because the Germans lost.
 

Deleted member 1487

Wich is why I started a thread on it. Superiority is like money, you allways want more. Meteor F3 in 43 and Nene Vampires in 44 would give the RAF the kind of overkill that breaks the enemy morale and strengh. And Gunnarz is right. Everybody jumps in on German wonder weapons and nobody cares about better/earlier allied weapons. Maybe it's because the Germans lost.

It'd certainly be interesting to see what would happen to Germany and Japan if they lose quicker after invading the Soviet Union...and yes, its less fun to discuss how we get OTL but quicker.
 
Materials to make jet engines are going to the a big problem with engines for me262.
"shortage of strategic materials, especially metals and alloys able to handle the extreme temperatures produced by the jet engine."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262

Messerschmitt ME 262 jet fighter
Pert II The power plant
http://www.enginehistory.org/German/Me-262/Me262_Engine_2.pdf


Messerschmitt Me 262: Goering was the bad guy, not Hitler!
"While the bureaucratic and developmental battles were raging, the crucial work for the ultimate success of the Me 262 program was being conducted by Franz’s team at Junkers. Their initial Jumo 004A design was built in small numbers, and could thus use the necessary high grade steel that the temperatures generated by a jet engine required. These initial engines had a satisfactory 200-250 hour service life. Unfortunately for the engine, Germany was in desperate straits for such materials as chromium, molybdenum, nickel, titanium and tungsten and the new advanced submarine construction program had a higher priority than jet engines. The 004B4 production engine had to be built with only about one-third of the necessary materials that high grade steel required. The primitive turbine blade design, rigidly mounted, imposed such stresses that the inferior metal used in the compressor blades failed often and early. These and other factors resulted in a service life of only 10 to 25 hours for the 004B4 engine."
http://air-boyne.com/messerschmitt-me-262-goering-was-the-bad-guy-not-hitler/
 
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Gunnarnz said:
Not singling out comrade Wiking in particular here, but this is one of the things that ticks me off about AH. People look at who the Allies were fighting in WW2, and decide that a particular project or piece of technology would have some significant effect on their performance. They then devote a great deal of effort to finding a way to push forward the development of that thing, handwaving away objections by pointing at poor decisions or inefficiency or anything else that hampered it's introduction. This is not, in itself, a bad thing - if it's done plausibly, there's nothing wrong with it.
But the moment anyone suggests the Allies doing something similar, even as a response to the above, there are a thousand unassailable reasons why they couldn't really do any better than OTL, and wouldn't know what to do with it anyway. I just find it really strange that we can give the Germans or the Japanese guided missiles, advanced aircraft or submarines, or whatever the latest toy is a few years early and watch them wreak havoc on the hapless Allies; but for some reason we can't give the Allies Vampire fighters in 1943, or bring out the Centurion in time for D-Day. It's the inconsistency that bothers me most.
I think the reason is in the OTL experience, & the response is consistent with IRL. It was the Germans, with greater need, who introduced the Wunderwaffe, while the Allies, in the main, responded with conventional stuff. Yes, the Allies had airborne radar & proximity fuses; that proves there's a capability, if there's a perceived need. What early Brit jets requires is just that: a perceived need.

What do jets give the Allies they don't get as well, or better, from improved Mustangs? I can't see anything...until, or unless, Germany has hordes of Me-262s or swarms of Ba-349 point-defense a/c or something; even then, I'm less sure you see jets than improved countermeasures, like more intruder ops.

Take a different example, tho. Suppose, for whatever reason, Germany starts the war with more Type VIIs. This essentially forces a change to British ASW & maritime patrol...& now, you've got sufficient motive to move them off the OTL response. How far off is still an open question--but that becomes a give & take based on what you allow, or expect, the German reaction is.

It's about what's within reasonable bounds, what feels right compared to OTL.
 

Kongzilla

Banned
If Hitler dies and Goring takes over, would the person who takes over the Luftwaffe bring the Me-262 forward.

Could the cancellation of certain programs like the Ural and Amerika bombers as well as the V-3 lead to extra resources that could be spent on Flak Towers and more aircraft.
 

hammo1j

Donor
One practical technology could have stopped the Allied Bomber offensive: Proximity Fused Flak. The allies used this with great success against the early 44 bombing of England and against V1s.

As other posters have mentioned there generally seems to be a misconception that German Secret Weapons were all war winners and that the Allies were no where near as ingenious. The allies were just as clever but they back the winners in their exotic weapons stable.
 
the me-262 was an interesting technological test bed, but it was a shit fighter for reasons well beyond durability in the engines

1. it was very slow to build up thrust
2. the engines even beyond their durability were prone to surging, stalling, overall failure and catching fire
3. it had a heavy, but very short ranged armament (ie it was outdistanced by the tail gun in the b-17 and b-29)
4. it had short range
5. it needed highly visable long all metal runways which would invite repeated visits by allied medium bombers
6. it's landing gear couldn't cope with the high speed take offs and landings and frequently failed
7. it was not particularly manueverable at speed and prone to getting stuck in terminal dives
8. it was not so much faster than late model piston engine fighters that they could dive on them and catch them if in enough numbers
 
Perhaps the focus on the newly developped technologies alone would not the the best thing to do as well. Having it being developped, as well as building out existing technologies was better.

What is meant is that the new Jetfighters were good, but could not expect to bring victory on their own, if not backed up by large numbers of existing piston engined aircraft, to make up numbers as well as to do the jobs the jet was not supposed to do. Good examples of contemporary low tech parallel developments were the Me-262 with the Ta-152, as the later was to provide high altitude cover for the lengthy startingproces of the Me-262. Also the He-219 nightfighter might seemed a good secondary aircraft, as it was the best WW2 nightfighter of all, being fast, heavily armed and fitted with state of the art electronics. With this sort of mix of high-tech (jet) and low-tech (piston engines), the Luftewaffe would possibly have been better of.
 
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