Washington Naval Treaty in a CP-Italy victory TL

Susano

Banned
Britain would never allow peace to be dictated by the Germans. Would this be after the British blockade starved Germany into submission and revolution? After an increasingly unstable economy leads to turmoil, as Germany's funds are devoted to keeping hold over France and Russia? Meanwhile no food has gotten into Germany, its people are starving, and leaders are calling for peace.

I don't think this could end the way you want it to.

Eh, Eurofed has a... loose grip on reality, but I think you exaggerate, too. For one thing, had there been no break in unrestricted submarine warfare (which really was simply the German counter-blockade, simply from below the waterline), then Britain wouldve been in a similarily bad state, and secondly once the landwar is over, the land trade routes are open again, too. That being said this simply means Germany would, if it plays its cards right, not be in a helpless position vis a vis Britain - it does not mean it can dominate Britain, and any schemes involving India or one of the "White Dominions" are indeed simply ludicrous.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Eh, Eurofed has a... loose grip on reality,

Susano, your justification for questioning my sanity and gratuitous personal attack ??

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

but I think you exaggerate, too. For one thing, had there been no break in unrestricted submarine warfare (which really was simply the German counter-blockade, simply from below the waterline),

Actually in this scenario, the USW was stopped and never resumed. I's part of the reason why America sticks to neutrality.

and secondly once the landwar is over, the land trade routes are open again, too.

True.

it does not mean it can dominate Britain,

Never said that. Only that if Britain proves stubborn, the CPs can strike it where they can reach by land and it hurts, by kicking it out of North Africa and the Middle East.

and any schemes involving India or one of the "White Dominions" are indeed simply ludicrous.

Nobody ever mentioned the Dominions (although there is plausible chance that the Afrikaners would rebel). And in all likelihood, Britain accepts peace before the CPs need to use the "nuclear option" of making a strategic threat show towards India (logistically compex as it would be, indeed).
 
Eh, Eurofed has a... loose grip on reality, but I think you exaggerate, too. For one thing, had there been no break in unrestricted submarine warfare (which really was simply the German counter-blockade, simply from below the waterline), then Britain wouldve been in a similarily bad state, and secondly once the landwar is over, the land trade routes are open again, too. That being said this simply means Germany would, if it plays its cards right, not be in a helpless position vis a vis Britain - it does not mean it can dominate Britain, and any schemes involving India or one of the "White Dominions" are indeed simply ludicrous.
I admit that I was exaggerating, but given Eurofed's state (upon which we agree) I thought it more expedient to make a broader claim to illustrate my point. Otherwise one cannot get through to him.

Actually in this scenario, the USW was stopped and never resumed. I's part of the reason why America sticks to neutrality.
:rolleyes: and thus is Germany starved into submission.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Ok, that's enough, both of you insult-spewing trolls can happily go into my ignore list, and good riddance.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

And for the record, I said that America sticks to neutrality during the war. It does not mean that it is going to be happy with continuation of British blockade of continental Europe once landwar wraps up. And trade is also going to restart by land.

This has started as such a nice thread, sigh.
 
:rolleyes: and thus is Germany starved into submission.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Primary cause for lack of foodstuffs was diversion of horses for military use. With only the Salonika and Middle Eastern fronts the Central powers can partially demobilize. This frees horses and men for use in agriculture. With the UK home fleet tied up in the North Sea the Italian and Austria-Hungarian fleets pose a severe threat in the Mediterranean.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The UK position in Egypt Persia and India could be jeopardized by extension of the conflict. Germany had been in contact with Indian nationalists groups since the beginning of the war.[/FONT]

 
I admit that I was exaggerating, but given Eurofed's state (upon which we agree) I thought it more expedient to make a broader claim to illustrate my point. Otherwise one cannot get through to him.


:rolleyes: and thus is Germany starved into submission.

About the First... Even If start to wonder from which Timeline come EF(but if i compared him with hurgan... who i'm have the shame of know about him and being trolled by him... EF is very razonable and open to critics... the most of the time) but remember where talking about and Alternate History Scenario(who for being better must follow several variables of logic... who are hard to meet), but i think in several way is scenario is pausable(see more ahead)

About the Second.. think about the alternate scenario. yes the USW was filed, but here the land war was won by a year ahead(still analizing the variables), and with the French port opens... like EF said, the blockade become an inverse political weapon, and here they now can scarvage for any food in france and another areas(portugal doesn't enter the war until 1918), and even EF is more pro british than he sound... give so good peace for a nation with so criminal maneauvre(you for being happy of a starvation of death doesn't make better:D... cfofcodachaufcpcp)

EF, Japan oportunist is a cliche... here japan doesn't have at that moment the power to compete against the RN asia squadron... but they perfectly seek por a separate peace who make Britian scream... but nothing more because the Empire ship is sinking... and the butterflies galore..

and what will happen with the Eastern Rebellion and the Indian here(an attack to India is a Logistical Nightmare in either way unless you have a land part in India... but if India Collapse Internally.... like OTL Deutchland?)

For all alternate sake, use geopolitical logic here and not the old britainwanker chant(make by the same Winston Cruchill): THE ROYAL NAVY IS INVENCIBLE... WE GONNA STARVED TO DEATH ALL THE RIVAL... because here doesn't apply

Att

Nivek von Beldo
 

Susano

Banned
For what its worth, I think that if Britain enters the war, Germany HAS to employ USW to win. There is the problem of the USA, true, but the Wilson Administration was pro-Entente anyways. It didnt declare war over either the USW or the Zimmermann Telegraph, but everything together plus its pro-Entente attitude. Had there been a more neutralist or pro-CP administration, which makes it clear that every US citizen enters the war zone on his or her own risk, then I think that problem could have been avoided - and indeed, I would see that as an absolute prerequisite for every CP victory scenario.
 
For what its worth, I think that if Britain enters the war, Germany HAS to employ USW to win. There is the problem of the USA, true, but the Wilson Administration was pro-Entente anyways. It didnt declare war over either the USW or the Zimmermann Telegraph, but everything together plus its pro-Entente attitude. Had there been a more neutralist or pro-CP administration, which makes it clear that every US citizen enters the war zone on his or her own risk, then I think that problem could have been avoided - and indeed, I would see that as an absolute prerequisite for every CP victory scenario.

Ironically that warining happen OTL, but the american make deef ears, the lusitania incidnet happen, and the WW natural anglo-philia(by being southern) make all the another dominos falls... in fact that reforzed my theory of the natural American Hipocresy and arrogance... thanks

but even with wilson... the victory is possible... because the butterflies are even before the lusitania(i think like late1914- early1915) and that negate that

but your own political feeling doesn't want to wilhelm to win.... and that is another thinl to do
 

Eurofed

Banned
EF, Japan oportunist is a cliche... here japan doesn't have at that moment the power to compete against the RN asia squadron... but they perfectly seek por a separate peace who make Britian scream... but nothing more because the Empire ship is sinking... and the butterflies galore..

Well, I do think Japan would make a separate peace, bargaining to keep as much of the German Pacific possession as they can (IMO better chance of keeping them than German or Italian concessions in China). When I say that Japan would "switch sides", I do not mean that they would start to attack British fleets or colonies. That indeed is too unlikely IMO. I mean that they would opportunistically turn on fallen Russia and grab Outer Manchuria, as they tried to do for a while in OTL early 1920s.

For all alternate sake, use geopolitical logic here and not the old britainwanker chant(make by the same Winston Cruchill): THE ROYAL NAVY IS INVENCIBLE... WE GONNA STARVED TO DEATH ALL THE RIVAL... because here doesn't apply

Amen to that, buddy. :D:cool:
 

Eurofed

Banned
Ironically that warining happen OTL, but the american make deef ears, the lusitania incidnet happen, and the WW natural anglo-philia(by being southern) make all the another dominos falls... in fact that reforzed my theory of the natural American Hipocresy and arrogance... thanks

but even with wilson... the victory is possible... because the butterflies are even before the lusitania(i think like late1914- early1915) and that negate that

but your own political feeling doesn't want to wilhelm to win.... and that is another thinl to do

Moreover, USW is not necessary for the CPs to win ITTL. If they win quick enough on land (as they do ITTL, France and Russia collapse by 1917), they have no reason to challenge America's benevolence with USW. Check the WW1 schedule, IOTL Germany started to use USW in 1915, dropped it when America protested, restarted it in 1917, starting the domino to America's entry. ITTL, Russia has collapsed in revolution and France is close to defeat, no need to antagonize America. If they keep the benevolence of the USA, the CPs can turn America's displeasure against the British blockade when the landwar wraps up.
 

Susano

Banned
but even with wilson... the victory is possible... because the butterflies are even before the lusitania(i think like late1914- early1915) and that negate that
How? It is clear that USW allows the American yellow press to get into a frenzy, influencing American public opinion, and it allows the government a pretext for entering the war. Both happened IOTL. How can butterflies change that?

but your own political feeling doesn't want to wilhelm to win.... and that is another thinl to do
Uh, what?

As for no USW: This would allow Great Britain to basically dictate all terms outside of the European mainland, including naval matters as discussed here, which would make for a shallow victory.
 
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