Washington naval conference ends with no agreement

When the conference began IIRC, the USN had the following 12" dreadnought and pre-dreadnoughts: 2 Wyoming-class, 2 Florida-class, 2 Delaware-class, 2 South Carolina-class, 6 Connecticut-class in service. With the leaking of the fact that Britain was trying to resell the Agincourt back to Brazil, the Canada back to Chile and Indomitable and Inflexible to Chile also. The Americans successfully convince Argentina to buy the 2 South Carolinas at almost scrap prices. Also at almost scrap prices the 6 Connecticts were sold to Poland. The sale to Poland was controversial. Strong lobbying by Polish-Americans ships and to sell the ships as coast defense battleships equaling what Germany was allowed to possess sealed the deal.
 

SsgtC

Banned
When the conference began IIRC, the USN had the following 12" dreadnought and pre-dreadnoughts: 2 Wyoming-class, 2 Florida-class, 2 Delaware-class, 2 South Carolina-class, 6 Connecticut-class in service. With the leaking of the fact that Britain was trying to resell the Agincourt back to Brazil, the Canada back to Chile and Indomitable and Inflexible to Chile also. The Americans successfully convince Argentina to buy the 2 South Carolinas at almost scrap prices. Also at almost scrap prices the 6 Connecticts were sold to Poland. The sale to Poland was controversial. Strong lobbying by Polish-Americans ships and to sell the ships as coast defense battleships equaling what Germany was allowed to possess sealed the deal.
????? Why would Argentina buy the South Carolinas? They were first generation Dreadnaughts that were significantly less powerful than their existing Rividavia class ships (8x12" vs 12x12" guns). They were also at least 4 knots slower than the Rividavia class, so the four ships couldn't operate together effectively.

And where are you basing 6 pre-Dreadnaughts at in Poland? Their only deep water port is Gdansk. Not exactly renowned for it's naval establishment.
 
????? Why would Argentina buy the South Carolinas? They were first generation Dreadnaughts that were significantly less powerful than their existing Rividavia class ships (8x12" vs 12x12" guns). They were also at least 4 knots slower than the Rividavia class, so the four ships couldn't operate together effectively.

And where are you basing 6 pre-Dreadnaughts at in Poland? Their only deep water port is Gdansk. Not exactly renowned for it's naval establishment.
Germans managed to build some battleships and batlecruisers in Gdańsk. The more important problems is that Gdańsk is not part of Poland, and Poland could not afford navy anyway. But the big guns and armor could be useful.
 
????? Why would Argentina buy the South Carolinas? They were first generation Dreadnaughts that were significantly less powerful than their existing Rividavia class ships (8x12" vs 12x12" guns). They were also at least 4 knots slower than the Rividavia class, so the four ships couldn't operate together effectively.

And where are you basing 6 pre-Dreadnaughts at in Poland? Their only deep water port is Gdansk. Not exactly renowned for it's naval establishment.

First, the numbers game. This gives Argentina 4 capital ships compared to their rival's 3. Second, the Argentinians would insist as a condition of sale that at the first major refit the ships be reengined to achieve a greater speed.

Poland realizing that 6 pre-Dreadnoughts were more than it could handle sells 3 to Romania.
 

SsgtC

Banned
First, the numbers game. This gives Argentina 4 capital ships compared to their rival's 3. Second, the Argentinians would insist as a condition of sale that at the first major refit the ships be reengined to achieve a greater speed.

Poland realizing that 6 pre-Dreadnoughts were more than it could handle sells 3 to Romania.
Not happening. It's literally cheaper to buy new ships. We've had this discussion before. To get the South Carolinas up to 22-23 knots, would cost around 7/8ths the cost of a brand new ship.
 
If Argentina has the South Carolina’s and the Rivadavia can they defeat Brazil who would have 3, 21-knot Dreadnoughts?
Presuming you're talking about Brazils third being Agincourt, no.
The Rividavia's will either have to leave the horribly slow SC's behind, and be outnumbered, or conform to their speed, which allows the Brazilians to dictate the range. at which point the Rivadavias have equality regarding the no. of guns etc. then you've got Rio, which alone negates the gun advantage the Argentine's would get from the two SC's. Not to mention she can just keep out of their range.
 

SsgtC

Banned
So there is no way the South Carolina’s can be useful to Argentina besides scrap metal?
Nope, none. Honestly, none of the ships predating the Super Dreadnaughts are useful. Not in a world where 16" guns and armor more than a foot thick is commonplace. The first generation Dreadnaughts were completely obsolete 5-10 years after they were first commissioned. If the ABC nations want a credible Navy going forward, they need to order new ships. Not buy obsolete castoffs. If all they want is a "national pride" force, what they already have is more than enough. Too much honestly for their economies.
 
Would the US scrap/sell its 12” ships? Would the Texas class also be let go since it predated the all or nothing armor scheme? For the Royal Navy it’s obvious that the 12” ships are gone, what about the 13.5” ships?
 

SsgtC

Banned
Would the US scrap/sell its 12” ships? Would the Texas class also be let go since it predated the all or nothing armor scheme? For the Royal Navy it’s obvious that the 12” ships are gone, what about the 13.5” ships?
If the US is getting an all new line of 16" gunned ships, yes the New York class (not Texas class, btw) is gone. They were only retained as long as they were because of the WNT and then the LNT restricting new construction, then WWII breaking out. With no WNT, the New Yorks are gone when the South Dakota class enters service (or possibly reduced to training ships). As for the 12" ships, they are most likely scraped. Obviously, they would sell them if anyone wanted them. But odds are, they're only going to get scrap value for them regardless of who buys them. Nobody would want the South Carolinas though. They were too slow and too small. The Florida class are probably the earliest anyone would want. And even that's marginal. Especially when you have navies replacing their 14" gunned ships with 16" gunned ships. Why not just wait a couple years and get 14" ships instead? Or, if you can afford it, order new 16" gunned ships?
 
If the US is getting an all new line of 16" gunned ships, yes the New York class (not Texas class, btw) is gone. They were only retained as long as they were because of the WNT and then the LNT restricting new construction, then WWII breaking out. With no WNT, the New Yorks are gone when the South Dakota class enters service (or possibly reduced to training ships). As for the 12" ships, they are most likely scraped. Obviously, they would sell them if anyone wanted them. But odds are, they're only going to get scrap value for them regardless of who buys them. Nobody would want the South Carolinas though. They were too slow and too small. The Florida class are probably the earliest anyone would want. And even that's marginal. Especially when you have navies replacing their 14" gunned ships with 16" gunned ships. Why not just wait a couple years and get 14" ships instead? Or, if you can afford it, order new 16" gunned ships?
The New York class would probably last until the SoDak Successor class shows up, if not longer. At the time of the WNT the US still had 3-4 Connecticut class Pre Dreadnoughts in service as training vessels, and the USN wanted to increase its number of battleships, so there is a good chance they might even want to keep South Carolina and Michigan until the next BB class is there. Most likely New York class would stay in service until the US builds 6 Post SoDak BBs then go into reserve/training roles until the US builds a few more, unless Congress forces a reduction in fleet sizes in terms of numbers of BB.
 
The New York class would probably last until the SoDak Successor class shows up, if not longer. At the time of the WNT the US still had 3-4 Connecticut class Pre Dreadnoughts in service as training vessels, and the USN wanted to increase its number of battleships, so there is a good chance they might even want to keep South Carolina and Michigan until the next BB class is there. Most likely New York class would stay in service until the US builds 6 Post SoDak BBs then go into reserve/training roles until the US builds a few more, unless Congress forces a reduction in fleet sizes in terms of numbers of BB.

Heck, the South Carolina might make a better training ship for battleship purposes than the other Pre-Standards, simply as it has the double-ended layout that is so endemic to the Standard and post-Standard layouts. The others could see better life as gunnery training ships.

But yeah, while the New York is old, it's still a 14" gun ship, and for now, the 14" gun ships are still viable.
 
Heck, the South Carolina might make a better training ship for battleship purposes than the other Pre-Standards, simply as it has the double-ended layout that is so endemic to the Standard and post-Standard layouts. The others could see better life as gunnery training ships.

But yeah, while the New York is old, it's still a 14" gun ship, and for now, the 14" gun ships are still viable.
They'd probably still be valuable for awhile for the US, if nothing else something that can bully the ABCs while the modern units are elsewhere
 
If there's no reason not to, keeping the older ships in mothballs with a caretaker crew isn't out of the question either- then those ships are free to wave the flag and bombard islands while the latest and greatest slug it out with enemy ships.
 
They'd probably still be valuable for awhile for the US, if nothing else something that can bully the ABCs while the modern units are elsewhere

Fair enough there, too. If anything, though, the Connecticut class needs replacing, and after that the Big Ten.

Hrm. Might there be a small battleship replacement for the Big Ten, or should they just be replaced with Scout Cruisers as well?
 

SsgtC

Banned
The New York class would probably last until the SoDak Successor class shows up, if not longer. At the time of the WNT the US still had 3-4 Connecticut class Pre Dreadnoughts in service as training vessels, and the USN wanted to increase its number of battleships, so there is a good chance they might even want to keep South Carolina and Michigan until the next BB class is there. Most likely New York class would stay in service until the US builds 6 Post SoDak BBs then go into reserve/training roles until the US builds a few more, unless Congress forces a reduction in fleet sizes in terms of numbers of BB.
South Carolina and Michigan won't be kept. They're too slow and small.
 
South Carolina and Michigan won't be kept. They're too slow and small.
And they can still be used for training ships. They are faster and no smaller than the Pre Dreadnoughts doing that job in 1921, and they can still keep doing 3rd line tasks, speed and size doesn't really matter for convoy escort or bombardment duty. Plus the USN wants to eventually hit 48BB, though it probably never will. To get there build 6 retire 4 is the way to go, and well there are 4 pre dreadnoughts in service when the SoDaks are building, get rid of those before you get rid of any dreadnoughts
 
And they can still be used for training ships. They are faster and no smaller than the Pre Dreadnoughts doing that job in 1921, and they can still keep doing 3rd line tasks, speed and size doesn't really matter for convoy escort or bombardment duty. Plus the USN wants to eventually hit 48BB, though it probably never will. To get there build 6 retire 4 is the way to go, and well there are 4 pre dreadnoughts in service when the SoDaks are building, get rid of those before you get rid of any dreadnoughts

I mean, if we count the Lexington in our battleship count, that gives:

6 Post-Sodak
6 Sodak
6 Lex
13 Standard

Which is 31 ships total. There are 10 pre-Standards, which brings it to 41. It would mean that you only need one more class of 6 battleships to get near your ideal number of 48.

If the Lexington doesn't count, that'd be harder to do... but I believe Congress would make them count it, all things considered.
 
If there's no reason not to, keeping the older ships in mothballs with a caretaker crew isn't out of the question either- then those ships are free to wave the flag and bombard islands while the latest and greatest slug it out with enemy ships.
Or convoy escort. You don't need a big modern ship for that. Small and old is good enough. The objective being to give the raider time to think and survive long enough to broadcast position etc. An old 12" gunned ship will easily outrange any cruiser or below raider and thus force them to turn, and will give pause to a larger ship as mission-critical damage can be done.

OTL Scharnhorst and Geusenau turned away when cruiser escort was present due to potential damage being inflicted, which they would be unable to repair at sea therefore a 12" gunned BB may give a 16" gunned BB pause for thought if it is alone and far away from base.

Of course that is with hindsight and may not be apparent to pre-WWII thinking.
 
Top