Washington Burns: A Story of Alternate America

What is happening in Central and Eastern Europe? Will Austria/Hungary, Russia try to reform like the French to stem liberalism?
Austria/Hungary modernize?! Ha nope. In fact that is what Prussia and Austria are going to start knocking heads about, as Prussia starts to embrace liberalism in moderation like the French, while Austria holds on. Russia....haven't decided yet. I like it when the Tsars do get with the program in time to save their own hides, but I'm not sure I'm going to do that. Open to suggestions there.

How will the British fighting to end slavery affect Africa and the Caribbean?
Not sure that it really will affect Africa much. The Slave trade was already over and OTL Britain didn't support slavery and still colonized Africa. Not supporting slavery is not the same as believing in racial equality. I do think that, thanks to efforts from New England and the demographic shifts we will see in the South, racial equality will become more common sooner than OTL, j. The US and in Europe, but not sure how this will play out in the Empire yet.


Will the post-war US begin to make its presence felt in Central and South America?
Likely yes, just not sure in what form yet. It's also likely that the Texas Federation will fill some of that role that the US did OTL, since their interests will be more directly tied to that region that the US is ITTL.

Will the British try to reform or modify its policies in India and the Far East? Will China or Korea try to modernize?
I think that we will see dominion status /home rule for India ITTL, though not likely until the reign of Victoria's daughter or grandchild. Like I said, racial equality will get off the ground sooner than OTL, but not necessarily in a rapid, more drastic pace than OTL.

I was pondering the Far East the other day. The US likely won't have enough of a Pacific presence to "open" Japan like on OTL. That said, Britain might do that. Part of me likes the idea of Britain acting as arbitrator between Japan, China, and Korea, preventing Japanese domination of the latter. Not sure about the fate of China itself yet. Again, open to suggestions there as well.
 
Austria/Hungary modernize?! Ha nope. In fact that is what Prussia and Austria are going to start knocking heads about, as Prussia starts to embrace liberalism in moderation like the French, while Austria holds on. Russia....haven't decided yet. I like it when the Tsars do get with the program in time to save their own hides, but I'm not sure I'm going to do that. Open to suggestions there.


Not sure that it really will affect Africa much. The Slave trade was already over and OTL Britain didn't support slavery and still colonized Africa. Not supporting slavery is not the same as believing in racial equality. I do think that, thanks to efforts from New England and the demographic shifts we will see in the South, racial equality will become more common sooner than OTL, j. The US and in Europe, but not sure how this will play out in the Empire yet.



Likely yes, just not sure in what form yet. It's also likely that the Texas Federation will fill some of that role that the US did OTL, since their interests will be more directly tied to that region that the US is ITTL.


I think that we will see dominion status /home rule for India ITTL, though not likely until the reign of Victoria's daughter or grandchild. Like I said, racial equality will get off the ground sooner than OTL, but not necessarily in a rapid, more drastic pace than OTL.

I was pondering the Far East the other day. The US likely won't have enough of a Pacific presence to "open" Japan like on OTL. That said, Britain might do that. Part of me likes the idea of Britain acting as arbitrator between Japan, China, and Korea, preventing Japanese domination of the latter. Not sure about the fate of China itself yet. Again, open to suggestions there as well.

What about France or a third party opening Japan. As for China, I could see a push for open ports from all powers.
 
What about France or a third party opening Japan. As for China, I could see a push for open ports from all powers.

Ooooo. France opening Japan. That could be interesting.

I think that is also likely. Honestly I think at least for this time period, China's story may be very similar, even if the details are changed somewhat.
 
So, I was talking about this TL with my brother, and kinda filling him in on everything, and at one point we got to talking about New York City, and I used the phrase "New New York" to make a distinction between the city before the War and the new city that will be built after the war. He jokingly said, hey, maybe you should actually call it that. I said no, and meant it, but it did get me thinking. What are the chances that instead of the city remaining "New York City," what if it became the City of Manhattan instead? Especially since what would have become the 5 Boroughs are going to remain independent cities ITTL?

For all intent and purposes, NYC doesn't exist as a political entity right now. The island of Manhattan is being administered by Hamilton III in a state-appointed position, but there is no city government or anything like that. And it is likely that many of the former New Yorkers that have moved won't move back right away, or at all, and much of the population of the new city will be immigrants coming in to build and populate the city. They won't have the same preconceived notions about what to call the place. I *could* see Manhattan becoming the more prominent term. Even if the legal name remains NYC, I could see it arise where colloquially, people only ever say Manhattan.

Thoughts?
 
Chapter 10: The Brandt Presidency, 1865-1871
---The Brandt Presidency (1865-1871)---


THOMAS MAYES ELECTED AS FIRST SECRETARY


FRANKLIN - Thomas Mayes, a Federalist Representative from Pennsylvania, has been elected as Speaker of the House and First Secretary, replacing wartime speaker William Trenton of Indiana. Many in the nation’s capital are quite excited at the idea of the government being shared equally between the Democrats and the Federalists, believing that this new government now taking shape under President Brandt is the most democratic the country has seen in more than a generation. It is also rumored that the newly sworn in President will appoint a new, multipartisan Cabinet, with at least one senior post going to a Federalist, and possibly even a Republican from Virginia or Maryland.
“Thomas Mayes Elected as First Secretary,” Franklin Observer, March 11, 1865.

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President Brandt started off the first few years of his official presidency focusing on two things: Restoration, and Expansion. Brandt stated many times during the campaign that he wanted to see the majority of the South, if not the entirety of the region, brought back into the Union before the end of his presidency. He hoped to see expanded infrastructure projects for the region, and economic aid to help rebuild the economy of the South. He also wanted to see the West, especially the unorganized Upper Louisiana Territory become organized and settled, with railways and national roads going westward, and hoping to soon link Oregon territory to the rest of the country.

But in 1865, as Brandt started his new term, his agenda was at odds with the Federalist-controlled Congress. The Federalists had campaigned on continuing a tough stance against the South, and limited westward expansion. Compromise had to be found somewhere and soon, otherwise the President’s new agenda wouldn’t get off the ground. First, he appointed two Federalists, including Victor Roland, to the cabinet (Roland becoming Secretary of State). Next, Brandt focused most of the internal improvements in his first two years in New England, expanding the Second National Road up into Maine and seeing an expansion of the USRC network in New England. In 1866, President Brandt signed legislation giving the FIO limited powers to confiscate land from plantation owners who had committed atrocities against their former slaves, or who were convicted of crimes against Freedmen since the war. With these compromises made, by early 1867 the Brandt Administration had accomplished several important goals towards westward expansion.

First Oregon Territory was divided between eastern Oregon Territory (which applied for statehood almost immediately), and the western Cascadia Territory, with the passage of the Greater Oregon Act in June 1865. By August, Oregon was admitted into the Union. Next, the Federal Bureau of Improvements was placed under the Department of the Interior, and announced the establishment of a Fifth National Road, which would stretch all the way from St. Louis, Missouri, all the way out to Astoria, Oregon, and the USRC would build a rail line to follow. As 1865 rolled into 1866, the next debate in Congress was on the proposal to reorganize the Upper Louisiana Territory. There was nominal control over the land administered from Fort Calhoun on the Platte River, near the Iowa border. But the territory was so vast, and there was no territorial government, just a Presidentially appointed Governor who tried to take care of law and order and protect settlers where he could from native tribes. Brandt’s Interior Secretary, Cameron Sauer, proposed that the territory be divided into four or five new territories, one of which would be another “native state,” the rest would become regular settler states. Democrats loved this plan, but Federalists were resistant. They fear (rightly) that these states would largely become Democrat-dominated and force them out of power. Furthermore, they also worried about the number of former Southerners who have fled out into the West, not wanting to give those former Slavers any chance at regaining political power of any sort. Furthering the impasse, Sauer and Brandt wanted to encourage settlement by allowing would-be settlers to claim land for free if they could live on the land for a set period of time and make improvements on it.

Throughout 1866, Secretary Sauer worked with First Secretary Mayes and other Congressmen and Senators to come up with compromises to get the President’s “Western Agenda” through Congress. First, the Settlers Act of 1866: Any citizen over the age of 21 could go into the land currently within the boundaries of the Upper Louisiana Territory and claim a tract of 160 acres of land at no initial cost. They must agree to live on the land for ten years and make improvements, at which point the land would become theirs. The only exception: former slaveholders could not claim land, something that the Federalists were adamant about. Also, settler claims could not be made on Federally recognized Native Nation land. By the end of 1866, as that year’s congressional elections took place, Congress passed the Upper Louisiana Territorial Reorganization Act, which dissolved the aforenamed territory and in its place created five new territories: Platte, Lakota, Metropotamia, Washington, and Adams. Lakota would be a Native Nations territory and would be fast tracked to achieve statehood similar to that of Kanasaw and Gigadohi. The other four territories would be formally organized with an appointed Governor and an elected legislature.
Hickman, Julianna, Dr. Brandt Triumphant: War and Peace under America’s Longest Serving President. Corvallis, OR: University of Oregon Press, 2009.

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DEMS TO RETAKE HOUSE!

FRANKLIN - The Democrats carried out a stunning comeback to retake control of the House of Representatives, going from 144 seats to 175, 5 votes shy of having a full majority. It is expected that the 11 Republicans in the House will vote with the Democrats to give that party control over the Speakership and First Secretary position, a blow to the Federalists who have enjoyed keeping what they call “balanced government.” The Senate remains firmly in Federalist hands, with 28 of the 50 seats. The Federalists only have a net loss of 2 seats in the House, but with the readmission of Tennessee and Arkansas, both of which voted largely Democrat, the Democrats surged into the lead. It now seems as though President Brandt will be able to focus on his plans to try to rebuild the South, something that the Federalists largely prevented during the last two years.
“Dems to Retake House!” Franklin Observer, November 12, 1866.

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Slavery in the Texas Federation was a tricky issue. When the Republic of Texas and the Mexican Province of Texas came together in the 1840s to establish the Federation, Slavery was legal in the Republic, but not in Mexican Texas (or the parts of New Mexico that had been annexed as the Mexican Republic crumbled). Slaveholders in the former Republic were very concerned about their ability to keep their slaves when the Federation’s constitution was drafted in 1849, and some feared the dream of a unified Texas might die because of this very contentious issue. But in the end, compromise was reached: Slavery would continue to exist in the eastern districts of the old Republic, but it would not be allowed to expand, and Slaveholders could not move to free soil and keep their slaves in bondage in their new home. At the same time, any slave caught running away to free soil would be returned to their owner in the East. This last provision wasn’t exactly popular, especially in the newly forming German communities northwest of Franklin-on-the-Brazos, but the Slaveholders insisted it was the only way to keep stability in the East with there being free soil so close by. This compromise would become the basis for the American “Runaway Slave Act” of 1851, proposed by future President and then-Senator James Hawthorne of Georgia.

From 1849 until the end of the American War Between the States in 1862, this was the status quo in Texas. The Eastern Districts kept their slaves, and the rest of the country remained free. But after American emancipation, the pressure on the Slavers in East Texas grew exponentially, both from pressure inside Texas and from without. The new US Government began to put a lot of pressure on the Texan government, as a slow but steady trickle of American Slavers began to flee across into Eastern Texas in 1862 and afterwards, some even bringing their slaves, which East Texan law allowed them to keep. Some Southerners billed the 7 Eastern Districts as a safe-haven for slaveowners of the American South. And within Texas, “Free Soilers” felt that the Slave Districts were hurting Texas’ image abroad, as slavery was more and more out of fashion with Europe. The German communities in both East Texas and Central Texas were ardent abolitionist supporters. The liberal German emigres were among the most radical of the Texas political spectrum. Finally, the pressure became too much, and things began to change.

First, in 1864, the Texan National Assembly passed the Slavery Importation Prohibition Act, which banned all forms of slave importation, including in the form of property being brought in by free immigrants. It furthermore stipulated that all slaves brought in by immigrants in the past five years could not be held in bondage past 1866. Then, in the 1865 District and Federation elections, Free Soilers swept many seats that had been held by more conservative politicians. In two of the seven “Slave Districts,” Free Soilers now controlled the local governments, and passed laws requiring the gradual emancipation of slavery by 1870. By the time 1870 came around for the next major Federation-wide elections, a Free Soiler was elected President, and in 1871 the Texan Emancipation Act was passed, stating that by 1880, all slaves in Texas would be free, and further stipulating that all those born to slaves after the passage of the law were to be born free. Emancipation would be compensated by the Texan government.
Johnston, Giaus, Dr. Modern History of Texas. San Antonio: Three Star Press, 2002.

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GEORGE DENTON ELECTED FIRST SECRETARY

FRANKLIN - The new House of Representatives has met, and has elected Democrat George Denton of Indiana as the next First Secretary of the United States. Both of the two major parties voted to a man along party lines. The Democrats are 5 seats shy of full control on their own, but they were able to get 7 of the 11 Republicans to vote for Denton as well, now giving the Democrats effective control of both Congress and the Presidency. It seems the end of “balanced Government” is over. There are some in the party that fear that a cabinet reshuffle is likely, though it would be largely unprecedented. Rumor has it that Secretary of State Victor Roland may be asked to resign, but this remains conjecture at this point. While there are several people who work at Washington House that have speculated to this point, President Brandt has yet to make any sort of comment.
“George Denton Elected First Secretary.” Boston Eagle, March 10, 1867.

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NEGRO CONTROLLED ALABAMA READMITTED

MONTGOMERY - Since the War, there has been, like in many states in the South, a steady stream of white emigration out of Alabama to locations in the undeveloped West. Because of this, the Freedmen population of Alabama have gradually taken over the surviving organs of the state. Three months ago, a state constitutional convention was called, and the resulting new constitution was adopted two weeks ago, and has now been accepted by Congress. Until the 1870 census, Alabama will have 3 representatives in Congress, who have already been seated (1 White, 2 Negro), and of course 2 senators (both Negro).
“Negro Controlled Alabama Readmitted.” Franklin Observer, June 8, 1867.

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SIXTH NATIONAL ROAD APPROVED

FRANKLIN - President Brandt today signed legislation that will create a 6th National Road, running from New Orleans up to St. Louis. The Road will run from New Orleans along the Eastern Side of the Mississippi River through Mississippi and Gigadohi, and then crossng back west into Arkansas and up to St. Louis, linking in with the 5th National Road which is currently creeping its way towards Astoria, Oregon, and the extension of the 1st National Road, which links St. Louis to the East. It is expected that it will take at least 5 years or more before the Road is complete, and at least another 5 years or more before bridges can be built crossing the Mississippi River. Until such time, ferries will be set up to carry traffic across the river.
“Sixth National Road Approved.” New Orleans Star, August 1, 1867.

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The Great Shift, as anthropologists have come to know it, began almost immediately after the War Between the States ended. With the revolt of the New Africa Republic having semi-official backing from the North, White Southerners were in a state of unconsolable panic that all of the former slaves in the South would be coming for them. The West beckoned, and tens of thousands of Southerners headed its call. It is estimated that by the time of the 1870 census, nearly 300,000 Southerners fled into the western territories, a full third of them settling in what was Adams Territory, which would later become the state of Dixiana. Another 200,000 would make the westward trek by 1880. America has not seen such an abrupt and rapid change in demographics before or since.

The South recovered from the drain fairly quickly, in large part thanks to federal investment, especially early on in the Brandt Administration, spurred on by Federalists who insisted that the Freedmen of the South be given ample opportunity to succeed in their new found freedom. The FIO helped former slaves with starter loans to help create new businesses, and some whites with money stayed around to take advantage of the power vacuum left by those fleeing west. The core of the black-dominated “New South” were the states of Mississippi (readmitted in 1863), Alabama (1867), and Louisiana (1867), where blacks made up better than 60% of the population (in Mississippi, it was nearly 75%) of the population by 1870. Racial pluralities existed in Arkansas (1865) and Florida (1869), with blacks and whites learning (slowly, in most cases), to share the public sphere. In Tennessee (1865) and North Carolina (1868) and Jefferson (1870), “Slavers” had never held the same political power as in the old Deep South states, and so Democrats were able to quickly take power and help steer those states into the “new order.”

Georgia and South Carolina, however, were a different story. Where the rest of the South saw whites leaving, Georgia and South Carolina saw many whites arrive, and at the same time saw blacks leaving for other states (Mississippi, in particular, became sort of the Freedmen’s mecca in the first decade after the War). This shift in demographics allowed both of these states to remain majority white, if only barely. The whites moving here were poorer, and didn’t want to or didn’t have the means to make the trek west. This became the last bastion of the Old South, and extremely obstinate towards the Federal authorities, both military and civilian. South Carolina would not be readmitted into the Union until 1876, and Georgia not until 1881, after serious plans were drawn up to dissolve the state and split it between Alabama, Florida, and South Carolina. A proud, defiant culture grew up in these states, but their economies crashed hard, and those states remain some of the poorest, underdeveloped economies in the Union to date.

In the west, the “Dixians,” as the white trekkers were called in the press, settled all throughout the former Upper Louisiana territory. In particular, nearly half of all Dixians settled in what was then the Adams Territory, much of which was rugged mountainous regions containing the eastern flank of the Rocky Mountains. At the time, this was considered a backwater, and not seen as the best area to settle, with poor prospects for farming in much of the region. But then, in 1868, gold was discovered, and the trickle of new settlers arriving by wagon at what was then South Platte Village turned into a torrent. By 1869, rail had made it all the way to the expanding city, now called New Charleston, and there was a constant buzz of statehood, something that the Federal government dragged their feet on for years but couldn’t hold off on too long because of the growing economic power of the territory thanks to the gold and silver in the mountains, though President Brandt did have enough political sway to prevent statehood for the territory until after his term was over. Under the Quincy Administration, Adams Territory held its constitutional convention in mid 1871, adopting the new name Dixiana, and by 1872, it joined the Union. And unlike the Old South enclaves in South Carolina and Georgia, Dixiana is both proud and prosperous, and thanks initially to gold and silver mines, and later important trade routes with Texas and California, remains a prominent economic region to this day. The contrasts between the two areas are quite glaring, in terms of GDP and average income.
Philmore, Herbert, Dr. America’s Cultural Regions. Fort Calhoun, PL: Platte University Press, 1907.

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DEMS KEEP HOUSE, FEDS KEEP SENATE

FRANKLIN - Despite the best efforts of the Federalists, including sweeping wins in most of the newly admitted Southern states, the Democrats were able to eek out a 5 seat lead in the House of Representatives, though still 5 seat shy of the 200 seats needed to have an absolute majority. The tiny House Republican caucus is expected to vote, at least in part, with the Democrats, keeping First Secretary Denton in his post for another two years. The Republicans actually gained two seats, thanks to the readmittance of Louisiana and North Carolina, both of which helped make up for the losses the Republicans suffered in Virginia. It still seems uncertain if the party will survive the decade. However, some party leaders see the west as their new battle ground. Indeed, many former republicans are among the growing diaspora of whites that are flooding west, in particular Adams Territory, ever since gold was discovered near South Platte City. Time will tell if the Republicans will be able to rebuild their electoral base, or if they will fold into the two major parties or create something wholly knew.

In the South, the Negro-dominated states are electing members that are caucusing with the Federalists on the national level, but at home belong to what is called the “Freedmen’s Party.” There has been some speculation as to whether or not this movement will itself fold into the Federalist Party, or become it’s own political organization on the national stage.

In the Senate, the Federalists have managed to maintain control, but only barely, now at 29 seats to the Democrats 27. For the first time since the Democrats and Republicans split into separate parties, the Republicans have zero seats in the Senate, losing their lone seat in Virginia to the Democrats.
“Dems Keep House, Feds Keep Senate.” Brooklyn Standard, November 15, 1868.

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ST. LOUIS MAYOR CHALLENGES SAUER FOR NOMINATION

ST. LOUIS - The popular mayor of St. Louis, John P. Quincy, has announced his intention to run for the Democratic nomination for the presidency. Quincy would be the first Southern Democrat nominated by the party if he is able to win. Supporters call Quincy a chance to really “heal the nation’s wounds,” and put to rest the Brandt-era ties to the War Between the States. He will be challenging Secretary of the Interior Cameron Sauer, who has been a major voice in the Brandt administration, and far more popular than the aging Vice President, Frank Wilbourn.
“St. Louis Mayor Challenges Sauer for Nomination.” Boston Eagle, December 2, 1869.

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As the 1870 Presidential Election unfolded, President Brandt felt content. He believed he had fulfilled his goals that he had set out to achieve in 1864, and could now look forward to retirement with his wife and children in Columbus. The West was now divided into territories that were all growing (though he sometimes lamented that so many former Slavers and their supporters had moved West - he’d privately stated that when the War Between the States was still going on, but clearly going in his favor, that he had envisioned the former slaves immigrating West, not the former masters). The FBI had maintained new growth with two new National Roads that were on schedule to be mostly operational by 1880. The country seemed to be healing, and he was ready to step out of the limelight.

1870 proved to be surprising for Brandt, however. He expected that the party would nominate his unofficial successor, Secretary of the Interior Cameron Sauer of Iowa, to be the next Democratic candidate for the Presidency. However, the Democratic Mayor of St. Louis upended that plan, and by the time the party met in the early summer of 1870, John P. Quincy was able to snag the nomination. Quincy and the Party Conference drafted a new platform calling for the final reintegration of the remaining military districts in the South, and continued expansion westward. Quincy’s primary rival in the race would be Jacob McClain, the Federalist Governor of Connecticut. There had been an attempt at the convention to get a Freedmen’s Party member as the Vice President, but the idea failed to gain enough traction. In the end, the Federalist VP candidate wound up being the Mayor of Boston, Brandon Gallup. The Republicans, either too defeated or not living in states (many having moved into the western territories), wound up not nominating a candidate that year, the first time ever. Many felt that this signaled the end of the Party, but it wound up just being a temporary hiatus as the party continued to regroup.

In the end, the Democrats won a comfortable majority, with 245 electoral votes to the Federalists’ 191, a full 26 more than the 219 required to win. On March 4th, 1871, on the steps of the Federal Congress Hall in Franklin, President Brandt handed over the Presidency and the nation to the 15th President of the United States, John P. Quincy of Missouri. Quincy was the first President from a state west of the Mississippi River, an appropriate piece of trivia for the man who oversaw the transformation of much of the West from rugged wilderness into settled farms and cities.

Hickman, Julianna, Dr. Brandt Triumphant: War and Peace under America’s Longest Serving President. Corvallis, OR: University of Oregon Press, 2009.

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Some Notes:
- "Dixiana" is approximately the eastern half of OTL Colorado (hope to have a map sometime soon). The capital, New Charleston, is approximately OTL Denver.
- Corvallis is the Capital of Oregon. Still haven't "named" Portland. Debating on what it will be ITTL. Open to suggestions.
- The Republicans will rebound, possibly restoring the "three party system," or possibly helping usher in a truly "regional party system." Dixiana, Georgia, and South Carolina will vote Republican, as will Jefferson. The resurgence of this party may end up cementing the Freedmen's Party as a permanent and separate fixture. If a true multiparty regional system coalesces, what I foresee happening is that multiple parties will nominate the same candidate for the presidency, creating "fusion tickets," in an attempt to avoid sending the election to the House.
- While Brandt is able to steer the country in a decent direction after the War, the full impact of the new post war demographic shift won't really be felt until the Quincy Presidency, and then the administrator following that as we get into the 1880s.
 
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*bump*

Any thoughts, critiques, questions or suggestions?

I have some ideas for the next segment, but I could use input on where to take things next. The more comments and suggests I get the better the writing process goes.

Some things I'm kicking around:
- Amerindian influence on socialism: the three native states, Gigadohi, Kanasaw, and eventually Lakota, have a unique set up where they have been granted permission to maintain tribal/communal ownership of land instead of private/individual land ownership. Socialists will draw from this example as the 19th century draws to a close, and some activities will travel to these states to either learn from the native system, or try to help shape it.
- The Zeppelins: I do plan on having the Zeppelin family immigrating to Texas, and for the sake of story having Ferdinand get similarly inspired during the War Between the States and go on to create airships. Details have yet to be settled, and I'm open to ideas there.
- Europe: Prussia is about to turn a new leaf towards modernization, and the Austrians aren't going to like that. War, anyone? Just have to find the right spark and decide how long and how bad and who will win.
- Japan: Still kicking around the idea of maybe France being the one to "open" Japan to the West. If so, what sort of influences will that have on Japan and the region as a whole?
- China: It would be cool if we could see it modernize without ditching the Emperor, but I doubt it. Any way to prevent it from having so much misfortune as it did during this time period OTL?
- Korea: Not colonized by Japan.

Other suggestions? Like I said, this TL will stay US focused, but I do want to have a decent overview of the wider world, just not in as much detail as the primary TL.
 
*bump*

- China: It would be cool if we could see it modernize without ditching the Emperor, but I doubt it. Any way to prevent it from having so much misfortune as it did during this time period OTL?
- Korea: Not colonized by Japan.

Other suggestions? Like I said, this TL will stay US focused, but I do want to have a decent overview of the wider world, just not in as much detail as the primary TL.

Regarding the China point, Kang Youwei, a key figure towards Chinese reform towards a constitutional monarchy will be active later in this period.

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Qing/personskangyouwei.html

If you're not up for a little handwavium, you could have Cixi's coup fail due to butterflies, and give Emperor Guangxu more supporters as a result of butterflies.

Alternately, take a look at With Iron And Fire/Superpower Empire: China 1912, for how Kang could co-opt a Republican revolution to restore a constitutional monarchy.



Edit: I'm a fucking idiot. Kang was never born TTL. That being said, however, a similar state of events may happen. This would lead to a similar figure as Kang, although that person may be more (or less) capable than OTL Kang was.

To facilitate reform, I also recommend that a boxer rebellion-esque event end better, as OTL the indemnity was absolutely crippling.

You'd definitely need the Qing to be less terrified of/Less focused on avoiding being Hannicized, or at least avoiding restricting the Han populace so much. Otherwise, nationalism will cause the Qing many issues.
 
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Regarding the China point, Kang Youwei, a key figure towards Chinese reform towards a constitutional monarchy will be active later in this period.

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Qing/personskangyouwei.html...

Edit: I'm a fucking idiot. Kang was never born TTL.
Though many, including the moderators, may strongly disagree with me, I think this is not a necessary assumption at all. True, the POD is during the War of 1812 but I think it is extreme to insist that every child born after that date across the world is therefore butterflied away. It can depend on the intensity of the casual connections between the events quite a lot.

I know the logic. Change anything at all significant, anywhere in the world whether there are developed social/historical links with the rest of the world or not, and due to butterfly chaos, the weather changes, animal migration patterns change, each change cascades into more changes. Perhaps many of these changes have no systematic casual influence, being within range of random fluctuations, but since they are different random fluctuations than OTL, subtle actions by the same people happen with different timing and sequence, result being people have sex at a different moment with their innards churned up differently, different sperm hits a different egg, voila everyone in the world within a generation or so is a different person, with a different innate personality, different looks and soon enough the only legitimate resemblances between OTL and ATL are the things caused by deep factors that can change only slowly, such as population ranges and broad geography and so forth. But all the little details, where each tree stands, where the newer roads and streets run, what they are named, what works of literature are produced, etc, must be different by the iron law of cascading butterflies.

Therefore only an "idiot" can say Kang Youwei exists in China 100 years after the POD. No matter where in the world, no matter how strong or weak the human culturally observed connections between Kang's OTL birth circumstances and the POD.

And to be fair, the more radical defeat of the USA by Britain is no mean POD, and Americans were always trying to horn in on the China trade (at least one American firm was involved in the Opium wars for instance OTL) while Britain of course is stomping all over Chinese history. Therefore the strongest channel of conveying butterfly chaos to China is altered British behavior--and again it doesn't have to be altered in a statistically significant way, just in details of who gets what post when, to amount to systematic and undeniable alterations in the Chinese milieu.

So maybe Kang Youwei as known to OTL is impossible after all.

But I think the logic of cascades of mere chaos is half-baked, because if we grant that the world is so radically chaotic, as it clearly is, then we can by the same token have worlds that differed from the past of OTL measurably coming closer into phase with our history at a later point, thanks to the same chaos. If it is chaotic, then there is nothing to rule out TLs where OTL random circumstances just happen to be duplicated, with the chaos altering courses hitherto tending in a different direction than OTL, now veering into harmony.

Thus an author can legitimately ignore the background noise of mere butterfly chaos or not, at their discretion, and preserve aspects of OTL long after a POD, especially if the systematic connection between the POD and the carried-over stuff is tenuous and ambiguous. If the author had put in a bit about Americans aggressively carving out extraterritorial claims in China, that would be a problem. Or of course we do have in current canon that Victoria is a reformer, which might bear heavily on China policy. Or, it might not!

So I think you've taken too strong a self-criticism on here. Kang Youwei is worthy of consideration.

Of course he failed OTL, so you might want a considerably different expy in any case!
That being said, however, a similar state of events may happen. This would lead to a similar figure as Kang, although that person may be more (or less) capable than OTL Kang was.

To facilitate reform, I also recommend that a boxer rebellion-esque event end better, as OTL the indemnity was absolutely crippling.

You'd definitely need the Qing to be less terrified of/Less focused on avoiding being Hannicized, or at least avoiding restricting the Han populace so much. Otherwise, nationalism will cause the Qing many issues.

Sadly, it seems far easier said than done. The Qing did much to maintain the cultural gap between themselves and the Han majority, and had solid reason to believe both their rule and their identity were absolutely dependent on it--nor would the Han be liable to forgive and forget all the oppression they had suffered in the service of this gap. The dynasty's fears that merging with their Han subjects would be tantamount to abdicating were not unfounded!

I took on a paper on the subject of why Japanese reforms could succeed but Qing dynasty ones failed when I was a freshmen, lo these many decades ago. I'm not sure if I would still agree, but IIRC I argued that ultimately it boiled down to the fact that the basis of personal and family power in Japan had more semblance (today I would argue, just by chance) to European patterns than the Chinese land-ownership based social system. If this has any weight, then for someone like Kang to create a new model army, complete with adequate technological infrastructure--arsenals and so forth--to support it and a surplus population to supply the troops, he'd have to be given largely unchecked control of a sizable territory, and then figure out how to impose a completely new society on the whole province in a workable form. And if he succeeded, he might submit the newfangled military force to the commands and whims of the Emperor--or he might as well, if he chose to, set himself up as a warlord, expand his holdings and doubtless aim to overthrow the whole Qing dynasty and create a new one of his own! Therefore even if smart reformers were on the right track in terms of policy, the regime giving them the resources and discretion to carry out effective reforms on the necessary scale would instinctively look like suicide to the court, and very likely would be!

Whereas with the Japanese system as evolved under the Tokugawa Shogunate, then formally reformed under Meiji, first the Shogunate had long ago taken steps, shaken down by centuries of practice, to decouple landed power from military power, and route landed wealth and noble status to a role of partnership with mercantile wealth on a different pattern than in China. I may do China a great injustice here but as I understand it the nexus of coordination of landed and entrepreneurial wealth and power was the state itself, which strongly favored the former as having legitimate status and despised and suspected the latter; a successful industrial/merchant family would strive to escape their status by buying in to landed wealth and distance themselves from their former enterprises, passing that role on to some other up and coming but basically still despised bunch. Whereas in Japan, stable relationships between ostensible patrons and commercial concerns formed. This happened, by chance, to have enough resemblance to the European relationship between old landed nobility and the new capitalist classes to enable European patterns, which provided the opportunity for the state to play a role similar to European states. European institutions could therefore be imported wholesale, with only subtle alteration to merge with the basis of Tokugawa society, as modified by the interventionist Meiji court. For the Chinese imperium to match that they'd have to undertake reforms with much more radical dislocation from prevailing social norms, figure out how to do things without relying too heavily on alien European patterns that did not mesh well, and risk social explosion at every turn.

A far better China scholar than me might find opportunities.

But looking to OTL analogies seems to guarantee failure, since men like Kang were trying their very best OTL yet failed, forcing China into the chaotic crucible of the warlord nominal Republic, from which emerged of course Maoist Communism as the final solution!

OTOH I don't suppose it matters too much just who "opens" Japan. Though perhaps Japanese success OTL was a nearer-run thing than it looks in retrospect, and an ATL Meiji might misfire and fail to provide the right mix of intervention and laissez-faire and botch the whole thing.

But my suspicion is that Japan will muddle through pretty well.
 
Just caught up.
Found Hawthorne's War and conclusion interesting.
I'd recommend avoiding changing too much outside the Americas for the sake of being different. It's usually better to see changes happening as a result of the POD not in addition to.
Not happy with Borealia but can see it. Surprised it wasn't left first as Kingdom of (British) North America.
 
Regarding the China point, Kang Youwei, a key figure towards Chinese reform towards a constitutional monarchy will be active later in this period.

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Qing/personskangyouwei.html

If you're not up for a little handwavium, you could have Cixi's coup fail due to butterflies, and give Emperor Guangxu more supporters as a result of butterflies.

Alternately, take a look at With Iron And Fire/Superpower Empire: China 1912, for how Kang could co-opt a Republican revolution to restore a constitutional monarchy.



Edit: I'm a fucking idiot. Kang was never born TTL. That being said, however, a similar state of events may happen. This would lead to a similar figure as Kang, although that person may be more (or less) capable than OTL Kang was.

To facilitate reform, I also recommend that a boxer rebellion-esque event end better, as OTL the indemnity was absolutely crippling.

You'd definitely need the Qing to be less terrified of/Less focused on avoiding being Hannicized, or at least avoiding restricting the Han populace so much. Otherwise, nationalism will cause the Qing many issues.

Thanks for the ideas. Even if this guy doesn't exist ITTL, his story at least provides ideas for what to do if I want to change things.

Though many, including the moderators, may strongly disagree with me, I think this is not a necessary assumption at all. True, the POD is during the War of 1812 but I think it is extreme to insist that every child born after that date across the world is therefore butterflied away. It can depend on the intensity of the casual connections between the events quite a lot.

.............

Thus an author can legitimately ignore the background noise of mere butterfly chaos or not, at their discretion, and preserve aspects of OTL long after a POD, especially if the systematic connection between the POD and the carried-over stuff is tenuous and ambiguous. If the author had put in a bit about Americans aggressively carving out extraterritorial claims in China, that would be a problem. Or of course we do have in current canon that Victoria is a reformer, which might bear heavily on China policy. Or, it might not!

I agree. I don't agree with the "everyone born after the PoD date will no longer exist" philosophy. Especially people farther away and less connected to the PoD and its aftermath. My rule of thumb is that people from the country of origin will likely be butterflied away within 5-15 years, from the continent, 10-30 years, and as we move farther away it can go up a bit, but safe to say within 50 years (IE, where the TL is now), most people who were born OTL 50 years after the POD will not exist.
But I think it is up to the author how to exercise that, and it's part of the "art" of writing an alternate history story. More so the subtly of having the same people exist, but having them be altered by the TL's events in a way that make them different (like I've done with Victoria).

Sadly, it seems far easier said than done. The Qing did much to maintain the cultural gap between themselves and the Han majority, and had solid reason to believe both their rule and their identity were absolutely dependent on it--nor would the Han be liable to forgive and forget all the oppression they had suffered in the service of this gap. The dynasty's fears that merging with their Han subjects would be tantamount to abdicating were not unfounded!

I took on a paper on the subject of why Japanese reforms could succeed but Qing dynasty ones failed when I was a freshmen, lo these many decades ago. I'm not sure if I would still agree, but IIRC I argued that ultimately it boiled down to the fact that the basis of personal and family power in Japan had more semblance (today I would argue, just by chance) to European patterns than the Chinese land-ownership based social system. If this has any weight, then for someone like Kang to create a new model army, complete with adequate technological infrastructure--arsenals and so forth--to support it and a surplus population to supply the troops, he'd have to be given largely unchecked control of a sizable territory, and then figure out how to impose a completely new society on the whole province in a workable form. And if he succeeded, he might submit the newfangled military force to the commands and whims of the Emperor--or he might as well, if he chose to, set himself up as a warlord, expand his holdings and doubtless aim to overthrow the whole Qing dynasty and create a new one of his own! Therefore even if smart reformers were on the right track in terms of policy, the regime giving them the resources and discretion to carry out effective reforms on the necessary scale would instinctively look like suicide to the court, and very likely would be!

Whereas with the Japanese system as evolved under the Tokugawa Shogunate, then formally reformed under Meiji, first the Shogunate had long ago taken steps, shaken down by centuries of practice, to decouple landed power from military power, and route landed wealth and noble status to a role of partnership with mercantile wealth on a different pattern than in China. I may do China a great injustice here but as I understand it the nexus of coordination of landed and entrepreneurial wealth and power was the state itself, which strongly favored the former as having legitimate status and despised and suspected the latter; a successful industrial/merchant family would strive to escape their status by buying in to landed wealth and distance themselves from their former enterprises, passing that role on to some other up and coming but basically still despised bunch. Whereas in Japan, stable relationships between ostensible patrons and commercial concerns formed. This happened, by chance, to have enough resemblance to the European relationship between old landed nobility and the new capitalist classes to enable European patterns, which provided the opportunity for the state to play a role similar to European states. European institutions could therefore be imported wholesale, with only subtle alteration to merge with the basis of Tokugawa society, as modified by the interventionist Meiji court. For the Chinese imperium to match that they'd have to undertake reforms with much more radical dislocation from prevailing social norms, figure out how to do things without relying too heavily on alien European patterns that did not mesh well, and risk social explosion at every turn.

A far better China scholar than me might find opportunities.

But looking to OTL analogies seems to guarantee failure, since men like Kang were trying their very best OTL yet failed, forcing China into the chaotic crucible of the warlord nominal Republic, from which emerged of course Maoist Communism as the final solution!

OTOH I don't suppose it matters too much just who "opens" Japan. Though perhaps Japanese success OTL was a nearer-run thing than it looks in retrospect, and an ATL Meiji might misfire and fail to provide the right mix of intervention and laissez-faire and botch the whole thing.

But my suspicion is that Japan will muddle through pretty well.

Thanks for the input here. A lot to look into for sure before I do the next "wider world" update.

Just caught up.
Found Hawthorne's War and conclusion interesting.
I'd recommend avoiding changing too much outside the Americas for the sake of being different. It's usually better to see changes happening as a result of the POD not in addition to.
Not happy with Borealia but can see it. Surprised it wasn't left first as Kingdom of (British) North America.

Thanks! A good interesting, I hope :)

I am going to make alterations, but I am going to try not to go super crazy with it. That stuff tends to draw attention away from the main points of a TL, in my opinion. Obviously, I've made some alterations in Europe, but I don't plan to introduce too many more, but just see what plays out from those.
 
I just finished catching up with the updates. I'm still really enjoying this timeline and story and I'm also digging the new format!

I do have a question; can I find some images for some of the politicians/figures in this timeline and story?
 
I just finished catching up with the updates. I'm still really enjoying this timeline and story and I'm also digging the new format!

I do have a question; can I find some images for some of the politicians/figures in this timeline and story?

Glad you're enjoying it!

Regarding images, are you offering to find images for the people mentioned, or were you asking if I had any?
 
This is very interesting, and your alternate civil war was very fun, in particular because I felt morally compelled to support the Confederation :)
Although, I've been wondering what happened to that Seminole enclave you mentionned in Florida? Did it gains statehood in addition with the other 2?
 
Famous People 1 (Zoidberg12)
Here are some pictures for some, though not all, of the figures in this timeline, and in no real order.

upload_2017-5-14_23-48-5.png

Samuel Luther (born Samuel Luther Dana, July 11, 1795-November 3, 1867), Democratic Congressman from Indiana, Vice-Presidential candidate in 1828, Presidential candidate in 1834 and Speaker of the House. IOTL, Dana was a chemist. IITL, as a veteran of the War of 1812 he was devastated by America's loss in the war and was suffering from a serious injury in his shoulder that he got from a British bullet. The young Dana, whose family had lost everything in the war, decided to move out of New Hampshire and head west. When he arrived in Indiana, he dropped his last name, some say to remove association with his now impoverished family, to symbolically begin anew in a new land, or both.

upload_2017-5-14_23-51-29.png

Robert Edward Lee (January 19, 1807-January 2, 1858), Republican President of the United States of America from 1853-1858. ITTL he never grew his distinctive beard, and IITL his mustache becomes distinctive.

upload_2017-5-15_0-38-46.png

Josiah Black (March 6, 1824-October 19, 1888), leader of the short-lived New African Republic and first African-American governor of Mississippi and of any US state. IOTL this was a photo of an unknown African-American man from Natchez, Mississippi.

upload_2017-5-14_23-53-21.png

General Jason Pollard Gaines (September 22, 1795-December 9, 1872), in civilian clothing. IOTL he was named John Pollard Gaines and was a Whig Congressman from Kentucky and a Territorial Governor of Oregon.

upload_2017-5-14_23-54-9.png

James Hawthorne (March 12, 1819-October 20, 1903), Republican President of the United States of America from 1858 to 1862 and the last President of the Slaver Union/Old Union. IOTL Hawthrone was a physician and politician in the states of California and Oregon.

upload_2017-5-14_23-55-3.png

General Peter Matthews (1812-June 28, 1870), in civilian clothing. IOTL he was named Joseph Warren Matthews and was a Governor of Mississippi.

upload_2017-5-14_23-55-55.png

Ronald Frederick Jackson (September 11, 1813-December 27, 1896), military man, Governor of Pennsylvania and Democratic nominee for President in the 1858 election. IOTL he was named Conrad Feger Jackson.

upload_2017-5-14_23-56-59.png

Giles Brandon (September 15, 1788-March 24, 1858), Republican President of the United States of America from 1837 to 1841. IOTL he was named and Gerard Brandon and was a Governor of Mississippi.

upload_2017-5-14_23-57-35.png

Victor Joseph Yates (November 9, 1768-September 1, 1852), Governor of Pennsylvania and Democratic President of the United States of America from 1841 to 1847. IOTL he was named Joseph Christopher Yates and was a Governor of New York. ITTL he moved to Pennsylvania as a result of the aftereffects of the War of 1812. At 72, he is so far the oldest man to be elected President of the United States of America.
 
Last edited:
Famous People 2 (Zoidberg12)
Here are some more pictures.

upload_2017-5-15_11-2-48.png

Wilbur Haines (January 6, 1801-January 24, 1880), Democratic President of the United States from 1847 to 1853. IOTL he was named Daniel Haines and was a Governor of New Jersey.

upload_2017-5-15_11-5-9.png

Joshua Henshaw Flint (1786-December 11, 1845), Senator from Maine and Federalist Vice-Presidential candidate in the 1840 election. IOTL he was named Joseph Henshaw Flint. He was also the father of physician Austin Flint I.

upload_2017-5-15_11-7-39.png

Jacob North (January 6, 1810-November 22, 1878), Federalist Vice-Presidential candidate in the 1846 election. IOTL he was named Brownlow North and was an English Evangelist. ITTL his parents immigrated to the United States from England shortly before his birth.

upload_2017-5-15_11-9-53.png

William Rutherford (December 6, 1792-August 21, 1868), Senator from Virginia and Republican candidate for President in the 1846 election. IOTL he was named John Rutherford and was an acting Governor of Virginia.

upload_2017-5-15_11-10-14.png

Thomas Kent (January 14, 1779-June 16, 1850), Governor of South Carolina and Republican Vice-Presidential candidate in the 1846 election. IOTL he was named Joseph Kent and was a Senator from and Governor of Maryland.
 
Famous People 3 (Zoidberg12)
Love both of these posts! Very nicely done

Thank you very much!

Here are two more. I'll try to post pictures for every character in this timeline/story, save for the ones that have the same names as IOTL or are fictional.

upload_2017-5-15_21-15-41.png

Cameron Frederick Sauer (born Wilhelm Carl Freidreich Sauer, March 23, 1831-May 19, 1913), Secretary of the Interior during the Brandt administration. IITL he was a German pipe organ builder. ITTL his family, also a pipe organ builder, fell on hard times as a result of the Napoleonic Wars and his parents moved to the United States in 1825. This is a photo of Sauer in 1905. In latter life, Sauer became a diplomat, and the medals on his chest are honors from foreign nations.

upload_2017-5-15_21-21-5.png

King Henry V (born July 24, 1820), King of France from 1825. IITL this is a painting of Henri of Artois, Count of Chambord, how was the nephew, as opposed to son, of Louis Antoine of France, Duke of Angoulême.
 
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