Washington Burns: A Story of Alternate America

Detroit and Milwaukee will be two important *Canadian cities ITTL, both being close to United States and good for border trade along with internal trade and production.

I'm still working on how alt-Canada will form and why (it's quite likely that some of the original reasons as OTL will still exist ITTL).

The US has gone as far as Oregon, but California is independent, and OTL Washington State is British as of the 1850 Boston Accords

Why Vesperia? That's not one I've heard of before.

Make sense.

Hopefully, California can stay independent ITTL. Mostly because having the Americans constantly stretch "from sea to shining sea" gets boring and repetitive.

It's one of the few alternate names for Canada that doesn't sound stupid to me. It means "land of the evening star", and it just seems suitably poetic. "Borealia" ("land of the north") also works, though it's a blatant reversal of "Australia" ("Land of the south").
 
Make sense.

Hopefully, California can stay independent ITTL. Mostly because having the Americans constantly stretch "from sea to shining sea" gets boring and repetitive.

It's one of the few alternate names for Canada that doesn't sound stupid to me. It means "land of the evening star", and it just seems suitably poetic. "Borealia" ("land of the north") also works, though it's a blatant reversal of "Australia" ("Land of the south").

Well, they will retain Oregon, but I don't think Alaska or Hawaii are in the picture. That said, I may have them acquire part of California (where California sells the northern, less populated territory for the money).

And that is interesting about the name. With Upper New York, and the Michigan and Wisconsin territories, I don't see "Canada" becoming the name, so something like Vesperia or Borealia seems possible (though I like the sound of New Albion or Anglia too...)
 
Well, they will retain Oregon, but I don't think Alaska or Hawaii are in the picture. That said, I may have them acquire part of California (where California sells the northern, less populated territory for the money).

And that is interesting about the name. With Upper New York, and the Michigan and Wisconsin territories, I don't see "Canada" becoming the name, so something like Vesperia or Borealia seems possible (though I like the sound of New Albion or Anglia too...)

Keep in mind that having the Californians sell off Northern territory would mean selling off at least part of the North California gold fields. Nobody in their right mind would do that, especially if the Bear Flag Republic needed money. What's the capital of California? It'd likely be easier to keep it in the colonial capital of Monterey instead of moving it all over the place before settling on Sacramento like OTL.

It should be a name that allows them to grow into their own nation rather than being "Britain 2". Though, frankly, I like Anglia too. It's not even close to as ridiculous as some of the other names proposed when founding the country. Like the ungodly name "Efisga", which was an acronym for "English, French, Irish, Scottish, German, Aboriginal".
 
Keep in mind that having the Californians sell off Northern territory would mean selling off at least part of the North California gold fields. Nobody in their right mind would do that, especially if the Bear Flag Republic needed money. What's the capital of California? It'd likely be easier to keep it in the colonial capital of Monterey instead of moving it all over the place before settling on Sacramento like OTL.

It should be a name that allows them to grow into their own nation rather than being "Britain 2". Though, frankly, I like Anglia too. It's not even close to as ridiculous as some of the other names proposed when founding the country. Like the ungodly name "Efisga", which was an acronym for "English, French, Irish, Scottish, German, Aboriginal".

Oooooo. I forgot about the gold fields *face palm.*

Yeah, I saw that list of proposed name. Several were silly but that one definitely took first place in silliness.
 
Oooooo. I forgot about the gold fields *face palm.*

Yeah, I saw that list of proposed name. Several were silly but that one definitely took first place in silliness.
Evidently, America's premier Pacific port will be Astoria, Oregon. It'll look strange with Oregon's OTL Northern border but that's the corner America's been painted into.

The geographical names make the most sense to me. The names derived from Britain do too but trumpeting your British heritage doesn't seem like a smart idea when the population is already culturally diverse. Vesperia still takes the lead since it isn't just the mirror image of "Australia" that "Borealia" is. Plus the fact that my spell check acknowledges that "Vesperia" is a word whereas "Borealia" gets the red underline.
 
Evidently, America's premier Pacific port will be Astoria, Oregon. It'll look strange with Oregon's OTL Northern border but that's the corner America's been painted into.

The geographical names make the most sense to me. The names derived from Britain do too but trumpeting your British heritage doesn't seem like a smart idea when the population is already culturally diverse. Vesperia still takes the lead since it isn't just the mirror image of "Australia" that "Borealia" is. Plus the fact that my spell check acknowledges that "Vesperia" is a word whereas "Borealia" gets the red underline.

Well, actually this version of "Oregon" goes north into part of what is OTL western Washington. But yes, the mouth of Colombia will be America's premier Pacific Port (though I need to research and see if Astoria will actually still be Astoria....part of me hopes so, bc I like the name and the town, but I'm not sure about the exact details of settlement and such).

I'm torn, part of me likes the connection to Australia that Borealia gives. But Vesperia is interesting too. I'll mull it over a bit.
 
Personally I really like the name Vesperia. As someone stated earlier it is an actual word. It would also mean a better sounding name for the inhabitants of the country. Vesperians as opposed to borealians.

It's also worth noting that instead of being called the dominion of blank, this alt Canada could be called a kingdom as the father's of confederation originally wanted.
 
Well, actually this version of "Oregon" goes north into part of what is OTL western Washington. But yes, the mouth of Colombia will be America's premier Pacific Port (though I need to research and see if Astoria will actually still be Astoria....part of me hopes so, bc I like the name and the town, but I'm not sure about the exact details of settlement and such).

I'm torn, part of me likes the connection to Australia that Borealia gives. But Vesperia is interesting too. I'll mull it over a bit.

Far enough north to give the United States a straight northern border? Hopefully, sooner or later we can see a map of this United States. Presumably, this United States would have even less of a reason to purchase Alaska from the Russians since they'd be busy figuring out how to reintegrate the CAS into the Union.

Vesperia sounds like a better name for a country than Borealia does. And, like CoolCuke said, "Vesperians" sounds better than "Borealians".
 
What the name is settled on depends on who is creating the confederation and who is later being added to it and Given just how easily Canada was agreed upon otl it wouldn't be very hard to get that name again.
Also Canada>Vesperia
Canadian>Vesperian
The name Canada has superior etymology, sounds better, has an actual history of use prior to the confederation and has the added bonus of Thomas D’Arcy McGee, a man born in Ireland, who is commonly dubbed the first Canadian nationalist referring to himself as Canadian when they were picking a name to begin with.
My point is there is a reason they went with Canada OTL.
 
I like how this is developing. I've read up on the early party systems before (don't remember much apart from the parties themselves.). But I never put too much thought into an ATL where the Federalists survive. The multi-party system developing in America is something I tried looking into once. Will that persist in this ATL? Love the reverse ACW you have going (I agree about the north winning). I also like the idea of alt!Victoria. Borealia FTW!
 
What the name is settled on depends on who is creating the confederation and who is later being added to it and Given just how easily Canada was agreed upon otl it wouldn't be very hard to get that name again.
Also Canada>Vesperia
Canadian>Vesperian
The name Canada has superior etymology, sounds better, has an actual history of use prior to the confederation and has the added bonus of Thomas D’Arcy McGee, a man born in Ireland, who is commonly dubbed the first Canadian nationalist referring to himself as Canadian when they were picking a name to begin with.
My point is there is a reason they went with Canada OTL.

It could still be called Canada but it is quite possible it could be called something else especially since there has been a large addition to what will be the country.
 
What the name is settled on depends on who is creating the confederation and who is later being added to it and Given just how easily Canada was agreed upon otl it wouldn't be very hard to get that name again.
Also Canada>Vesperia
Canadian>Vesperian
The name Canada has superior etymology, sounds better, has an actual history of use prior to the confederation and has the added bonus of Thomas D’Arcy McGee, a man born in Ireland, who is commonly dubbed the first Canadian nationalist referring to himself as Canadian when they were picking a name to begin with.
My point is there is a reason they went with Canada OTL.
As a Canadian I can say that "Vesperia" is the best of the alternate names for Canada.
 
Personally I really like the name Vesperia. As someone stated earlier it is an actual word. It would also mean a better sounding name for the inhabitants of the country. Vesperians as opposed to borealians.

It's also worth noting that instead of being called the dominion of blank, this alt Canada could be called a kingdom as the father's of confederation originally wanted.

Yeah, I do agree that Verperians sounds better than Borealians. And I was also toyin around with the idea of Kingdom instead of Dominion. Going to read up on why the one was chosen over the other before I decided.

Far enough north to give the United States a straight northern border? Hopefully, sooner or later we can see a map of this United States. Presumably, this United States would have even less of a reason to purchase Alaska from the Russians since they'd be busy figuring out how to reintegrate the CAS into the Union.

Going to work on a new map soon, maybe have something by this weekend if I can. No promises though.

And yes, I can't see the USA buying Alaska ITTL.

What the name is settled on depends on who is creating the confederation and who is later being added to it and Given just how easily Canada was agreed upon otl it wouldn't be very hard to get that name again.
Also Canada>Vesperia
Canadian>Vesperian
The name Canada has superior etymology, sounds better, has an actual history of use prior to the confederation and has the added bonus of Thomas D’Arcy McGee, a man born in Ireland, who is commonly dubbed the first Canadian nationalist referring to himself as Canadian when they were picking a name to begin with.
My point is there is a reason they went with Canada OTL.

Good point. Like I said, not sure yet on the name. The main reason I'm considering NOT calling it Canada is bc of former American territories that have been added to BNA and might not like taking on the identity of "Canada."

I like how this is developing. I've read up on the early party systems before (don't remember much apart from the parties themselves.). But I never put too much thought into an ATL where the Federalists survive. The multi-party system developing in America is something I tried looking into once. Will that persist in this ATL? Love the reverse ACW you have going (I agree about the north winning). I also like the idea of alt!Victoria. Borealia FTW!

Thanks! Glad you're enjoying things so far. I haven't decided for sure about long term prospects for the multi-party system. It's clear that if it does survive, things will have to be altered or we end up with the same situation as in 1852 and 1858, with a president that only won 35% of the votes.

And glad you like the idea of an alt-Victoria. She will take the throne a few years later, not marry Albert (have a different husband). Her outlook will be different.

It could still be called Canada but it is quite possible it could be called something else especially since there has been a large addition to what will be the country.

Yes, with the addition of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Upper New York, you have several areas that were formerly American that were NOT added to Upper or Lower Canada and have retained their own local identities. This, I believe, presents a decent argument for a name other than Canada.
 
Yeah, I do agree that Verperians sounds better than Borealians. And I was also toyin around with the idea of Kingdom instead of Dominion. Going to read up on why the one was chosen over the other before I decided.



Going to work on a new map soon, maybe have something by this weekend if I can. No promises though.

And yes, I can't see the USA buying Alaska ITTL.



Good point. Like I said, not sure yet on the name. The main reason I'm considering NOT calling it Canada is bc of former American territories that have been added to BNA and might not like taking on the identity of "Canada."



Thanks! Glad you're enjoying things so far. I haven't decided for sure about long term prospects for the multi-party system. It's clear that if it does survive, things will have to be altered or we end up with the same situation as in 1852 and 1858, with a president that only won 35% of the votes.

And glad you like the idea of an alt-Victoria. She will take the throne a few years later, not marry Albert (have a different husband). Her outlook will be different.



Yes, with the addition of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Upper New York, you have several areas that were formerly American that were NOT added to Upper or Lower Canada and have retained their own local identities. This, I believe, presents a decent argument for a name other than Canada.
Of all the region's that came to part of Canada OTL only 2 of them called themselves Canada already and Canada even today still has regional identities, I think you are weighting the former American Territories too highly.
 
As a Canadian I'm telling you there isn't a reason to use one of the alternate names.

Of all the region's that came to part of Canada OTL only 2 of them called themselves Canada already and Canada even today still has regional identities, I think you are weighting the former American Territories too highly.

As one Canadian to another, I think you're being unreasonably hostile towards a possible name change in a fictional timeline. Relax. There's no need to be frothing at the mouth at our discussion. And there's no reason why Canada couldn't instead be used as the province name for either of the Canadas.
 
As one Canadian to another, I think you're being unreasonably hostile towards a possible name change in a fictional timeline. Relax. There's no need to be frothing at the mouth at our discussion. And there's no reason why Canada couldn't instead be used as the province name for either of the Canadas.
I'm not being hostile, I thought we were discussing possible names and people were giving their opinions on the matter?
I am of the opinion that having the same name is not terribly unlikely and am supporting my position.
 
Some comments on this interesting TL:

  • December 19 - Vice President-elect Tompkins is killed when his carriage careens off an icy road on the way to Philadelphia. This will open up a huge debate about who should fill that position.

  • December 22: British and American negotiators reach an agreement on the Wisconsin Treaty, to better define the British border after the Treaty of Ghent gave the British both of the Michigan Peninsulas. The Treaty would cede most of OTL Wisconsin to the British in exchange for dropping the Ghent provision that the Americans not be allowed to build any new fortifications on the Mississippi until 1835. The British want to be able to eventually build a canal across this territory to the Mississippi, and connect the Great Lakes to that trade network. The Federalists vow to block the treaty, and are supported by western Democratic Republicans who fear British encroachment.

1817

  • January: A flyer begins to circulate, first in Philadelphia, then New York, Boston, and elswhere in New England, suggesting that to help unite the country and heal the wounds of the war, Federalist Rufus King should be selected as the new Vice President to replace the late Daniel Tompkins. Surprising many, this flyer is endorsed by both a Democratic Republican and a Federalist candidate.

  • March 4: William Crawford sworn in as the 5th President of the United States. Though he makes no initial mention of the vacant Vice Presidency, astute observers noted that Rufus King was given a prominent seat at the inaugural address.

  • March 10: President Crawford formally endorses the “unity plan,” and asks Congress to approve the appointment of Rufus King as Vice President. The debate over this appointment will rage for over two months, with both sides being divided over the controversial issue. President. This will later become known as the “Minor Compromise of 1817.”
Okay, this is a cute little plotline with the really killer issue that up until the OTL 25th Amendment, there was no way to fill a vacant Vice Presidency.

You can get around this fairly easily by moving around the timeline a bit and having Democratic electors vote for King at Crawford's direction.

  • September 1: Jefferson Territory is granted statehood as the 25th state in the Union. The Slave/Free state balance has now been restored, with 13 free, 13 slave.
Think you mean 26th state

  • January: Negotiations behind closed doors and in the halls of Congress as to who would ultimately be declared the winner of the 1834 election. The Republicans have the largest single delegation in Congress, but combined, the Federalists and Democrats outnumber them and could more than make a majority. At first, the Federalists seem confident that they will be able to support Democratic candidate Samuel Luther and lock the Republicans out of Washington House. However, a number of Southern Democrats were elected on an “anti-Party” platform, and do not like Samuel Luther. Calhoun goes after these representatives from Tennessee and Kentucky and elsewhere to try and secure the 25 votes he would need to gain the Presidency.

  • February 2: In a vote of 156 in favor to 150 with 3 abstaining, John C. Calhoun is selected as the winner of the 1834 election. Many bitter feelings will seize the Democratic party, as pro-Luther members feel the party and the nation had been cheated by the anti-Luther members who handed the Presidency to Calhoun. Arguments, brawls, and even a few illegal duels are sparked by the results of this vote.

Okay, this is a rather more serious issue. The house balloting is contingent vote by state [which you recognized in the previous contingent election] requiring a majority of states to vote for the victor. As the tally is 13 slave to 13 free states, Calhoun needs to win sufficient representatives in at least one free state to constitute a majority, which seems unlikely. Much more likely is repeated deadlock votes that result in no outcome for the presidency.

In the meantime, the Senate would also need to vote on the Vice President [which you don't seem to have covered for any of the contingent elections], and Republicans would need three crossover seats to get a majority [27/52]. I don't know the free/slave state breakdown of locations of Senators from each party, but in case the Vice President contingent vote ties [quite likely if the highly polarized atmosphere continues], incumbent VP Hiram Gillett would break the tie and elect John Q. Adams as new Vice President [and acting President if the House is still deadlocked.]

If Republicans have enough House seats to form a majority of a northern free state, this can be gotten around [with some mention of a backlash that hurts them in future elections.]

1824:

  • January 29: By narrow margins, the congress passes the 16th amendment, establishing the position of “First Secretary.” The bill is sent out to the states, where it will take many more years before it passes. In the meantime, Speaker Barbour continues to attend cabinet meetings.

  • April 11: Republican congressmen propose an amendment to the constitution that would allow the Presidential election to be decided by the candidate that wins the most electoral votes, even if it is not an absolute majority, instead of sending such elections to the House. The 70 Federalist delegates vow to fight the amendment. The Democrats, predictably, are split on Northern/Southern lines. The Republicans only need to to sway 13 votes.

  • September 14: Congress passes the 17th Amendment, 105 to 205. The Republican dominated states of the South will all approve the amendment by the end of the year. A remaining 5 states are required to pass the amendment, which will take the better part of the next year and a half to complete.
Er, constitutional amendments need 2/3 supermajorities in both the House and the Senate. So by the current described outcome, neither amendment would actually pass the Congress. This is probably the biggest issue for the plausibility of the TL - it's really really hard frankly for me to see a supermajority passing the 17th Amendment that really favors the Republican party ITTL.
 
Of all the region's that came to part of Canada OTL only 2 of them called themselves Canada already and Canada even today still has regional identities, I think you are weighting the former American Territories too highly.

As one Canadian to another, I think you're being unreasonably hostile towards a possible name change in a fictional timeline. Relax. There's no need to be frothing at the mouth at our discussion. And there's no reason why Canada couldn't instead be used as the province name for either of the Canadas.

I'm not being hostile, I thought we were discussing possible names and people were giving their opinions on the matter?
I am of the opinion that having the same name is not terribly unlikely and am supporting my position.

I appreciate everyone putting in their points of view here and giving me a good deal to think about. Still some time for me to decide, as the creation of this alt-Canada is still some time off, and will occur after the Civil War as per OTL.
 
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