Washington Burns: A Story of Alternate America

[Eckener]

Thank you very much!

Here are two more. I'll try to post pictures for every character in this timeline/story, save for the ones that have the same names as IOTL or are fictional.

These are great. I definitely welcome the effort.

For the record though, when writing this TL, the vast majority of people that have been mentioned, especially after the first twenty or so years, were just made up. There are a few exceptions (Robert Lee being the most recent one of prominence), but they ARE exceptions.

I love that you found OTL people with the same or similar names that match the characters ITTL well enough, and as far as I'm concerned those posts you've made are cannon. Just wasn't necessarily done that way in purpose.

Keep up the good work. Like I said I love it.

 

[Eckener]

So, working on the next update.

Have a question for anyone who knows anything about Congressional membership. In OTL, Congress has been limited at 435 by present day, and this occurred early in the 20th century. Anyone know what process was used to get to this number, and how it is apportioned? I just did the updated population numbers for 1870, and I've been sticking with approximately 1 representative for every 40,000 people in a state, and right now that puts us at over 600 members in the House. I've considered just continuing with this, but at some point I'll hit over 1000 reps. It'll get a bit crazy. Thoughts?

 

[TheCoolCucumber]

Not sure what to tell you. I think that more than 600 might be pushing it so I would be best to cap it and then just redistribute the districts after each census so that they have roughly the same number of people.

 

[Zoidberg12]

These are great. I definitely welcome the effort.

For the record though, when writing this TL, the vast majority of people that have been mentioned, especially after the first twenty or so years, were just made up. There are a few exceptions (Robert Lee being the most recent one of prominence), but they ARE exceptions.

I love that you found OTL people with the same or similar names that match the characters ITTL well enough, and as far as I'm concerned those posts you've made are cannon. Just wasn't necessarily done that way in purpose.

Keep up the good work. Like I said I love it.

Thank you!

I also thank you for making my posts canon. I have to admit, finding OTL people with the same or similar names that more or less match the characters ITTL was a lot of fun, plus I really like alternative histories where people who were obscure IOTL become famous and/or much more well-known.

In regards to fictional characters, I am willing to admit that there are fictional characters in this alternative history. For one thing, I think that Hugo Brandt, Ulysses Portman and Joshua Black, among others, are fictional. I'll try and find photos for Brandt and Portman soon enough.

 

[Zoidberg12]

Here is a list of Presidents for this timeline.

1. George Washington (Independent) (1789-1797)
2. John Adams (Federalist) (1797-1801)
3. Thomas Jefferson (Democratic-Republican) (1801-1809)
4. James Madison (Democratic-Republican) (1809-1817)
5. William Crawford (Democratic-Republican) (1817-1823)
6. Henry Clay (Republican) (1823-1829)
7. Alexander Hamilton, Jr. (Federalist) (1829-1835)
8. John C. Calhoun (Republican) (1835-1838) ††
9. Giles Brandon (Republican) (1838-1841)
10. Victor Yates (Democratic) (1841-1847)
11. Wilbur Haines (Democratic) (1847-1853)
12. Robert Lee (Republican) (1853-1858) ††
13. James Hawthorne (Republican) (1858-1863)
-. Hugo Brandt (Democratic) (1860-1865)*
14. Hugo Brandt (Democratic) (1865-1871)
15. John P. Quincy (Democratic) (1871- )

††=Assassinated
*=Acting President

 

[Eckener]

Thank you!

I also thank you for making my posts canon. I have to admit, finding OTL people with the same or similar names that more or less match the characters ITTL was a lot of fun, plus I really like alternative histories where people who were obscure IOTL become famous and/or much more well-known.

In regards to fictional characters, I am willing to admit that there are fictional characters in this alternative history. For one thing, I think that Hugo Brandt, Ulysses Portman and Joshua Black, among others, are fictional. I'll try and find photos for Brandt and Portman soon enough.

Generally, when making "fictional" characters, it is with the idea that they are really people that were not known in OTL that rise from obscurity ITTL, not that they've necessarily appeared out of thin air.

Here is a list of Presidents for this timeline.

1. George Washington (Independent) (1789-1797)
2. John Adams (Federalist) (1797-1801)
3. Thomas Jefferson (Democratic-Republican) (1801-1809)
4. James Madison (Democratic-Republican) (1809-1817)
5. William Crawford (Democratic-Republican) (1817-1823)
6. Henry Clay (Democratic-Republican) (1823-1829)
7. Alexander Hamilton, Jr. (Federalist) (1829-1835)
8. John C. Calhoun (Republican) (1835-1837) ††
9. Giles Brandon (Republican) (1837-1841)
10. Victor Yates (Democratic) (1841-1847)
11. Wilbur Haines (Democratic) (1847-1853)
12. Robert Lee (Republican) (1853-1858) ††
13. James Hawthorne (Republican) (1858-1863)
-. Hugo Brandt (Democratic) (1860-1865)*
14. Hugo Brandt (Democratic) (1865-1871)
15. John P. Quincy (Democratic) (1871- )

††=Assassinated
*=Acting President

Thanks for making this list! I keep meaning to do that. I have a Google Doc I have running that has all the presidents and First Secretaries, and also a Google Doc to keep track of Congressional and Presidential election results, but I haven't posted most of that unless it pops up directly in the TL story.

 

[Eckener]

Not sure what to tell you. I think that more than 600 might be pushing it so I would be best to cap it and then just redistribute the districts after each census so that they have roughly the same number of people.

For now, I think what will happen is that a compromise will be reached and they will reduce the number of people represented per rep, and then possibly later, in the 20th century, a system similar to what we have now OTL will arise.

 

[Eckener]

(apologies for the triple post)

I've been considering changing the title of the TL. "Washington Lost" was supposed to be talking about the loss of Washington DC, but I think a lot of people see the title and think it must have to do with George Washington loosing the Revolutionary War or something, and since that tends to be a more common POD, I think some people skip it. Any suggestions for a better title? Maybe something instead about Franklin?

- "Franklin: America's capital in the heartland"
- "Franklin: America's capital on the Ohio"

Or something at least more clearly implying this isn'g about George Washington:

- "Washington in Ruins"
- "Washington Burns: 1814"

Etc.

Thoughts? Open to better suggestions too.

 

[TheCoolCucumber]

Honestly l like the current title better.

 

[Grammar Kaiser]

I like the current title. But simply changing lost to burns could work since burns usually refers to a city's destruction.

How's DC (whatever is left of it anyway) doing by the way?

 

[Lalli]

I don't see reason fo change name but if should change that next alternate names might be good:

Washington Burns!
Lost Capital
New Capital in Heartlands
Tale of New City
1814: Is Washington Burning?

 

[Zoidberg12]

Here is a list of Presidential candidates for this timeline.

1816: William Crawford (DR-GA)/Daniel Tompkins (DR-NY) def. Rufus King (F-MA)/Caleb Strong (F-MA)
1822: Henry Clay (R-KY)/William Jones (R-PA) def. John Cotton Smith (F-CT)/Robert Harper (F-MD) & Thomas Worthington (D-OH)
1828: Alexander Hamilton Jr. (F-NY)/Hiram Gillet (F-NH) def. John C. Calhoun (R-SC)/Geoffrey Billings (R-MD) & Thomas Worthington (D-OH)/Samuel Luther (D-IN)
1834: John C. Calhoun (R-SC)/Giles Brandon (R-GA) def. Hiram Gillet (F-NH)/John Q. Adams (F-MA) & Samuel Luther (D-IN)/Blane Cartwright (D-OH)
1840: Victor Yates (D-PA)/Wilbur Haines (D-KY) def. Giles Brandon (R-GA)/Robert Lee (R-VA) & Peter Gallup (F-MA)/Joshua Flint (F-ME)
1846: Wilbur Haines (D-KY)/Clifford Bates (D-NY) def. William Rutherford (R-VA)/Thomas Kent (R-MD) & Victor Lang (F-RI)/Jacob North (F-PA)
1852: Robert Lee (R-VA)/James Hawthorne (R-GA) def. Hiram Callaway (D-OH)/Hugo Brandt (D-OH) & Jacob North (F-PA)/Ulysses Portman (F-ME) & Timothy Goodman (NED-NY)/Lewis Benton (NED-NJ)
1858: James Hawthorne (R-GA)/Josiah Blankenship (R-MS) def. Ronald Jackson (D-PA)/Sherman Doughty (D-CT) & Ulysees Portman (F-ME)/Lionel Anderson (F-NY)
1864: Hugo Brant (D-OH)/Frank Wilbourn (D-NY) def. Victor Roland (F-CT)/Charles Dickson (F-NY) & Horace Keeting (R-VA)/Jacob Fillmore (R-MD)
1870: John P. Quincy (D-MO)/Bradley Kinder (D-IN) def. Jacob McClain (F-CT)/Brandon Gallup (F-MA)

 

[Eckener]

Honestly l like the current title better.

I like the current title. But simply changing lost to burns could work since burns usually refers to a city's destruction.

I don't see reason fo change name but if should change that next alternate names might be good:

Washington Burns!
Lost Capital
New Capital in Heartlands
Tale of New City
1814: Is Washington Burning?

I've been kicking it around for a minute, because I think the title is unintentionally misleading and it might draw more people in if it better reflected the content of the TL.

Haven't made up my mind yet though, and I do like how it sounds changing "Lost" to "Burns," without changing anything else.

How's DC (whatever is left of it anyway) doing by the way?

Much of the DC area was bought by the Claymore family of Virginia in 1819, and turned into a plantation, and the shell of the President's House was salvaged and used for the manor house. Since the War, the Claymores have fallen on hard times, trying to adjust. They have started selling off parcels of the land, and nearby Georgetown developers have been buying parts to build on. The ruins of the old Capitol still stand, Claymore having dreamed of turning the building into a Grand Hotel/Resort having never came to fruition. In the 1880s, the Claymores will turn things around a bit, and stave off future losses and keep their House and other parts of the estate, possibly including the old Capitol as well. Eventually the land is going to become a protected landmark and historical site in the twentieth century, but that's getting ahead of myself

Here is a list of Presidential candidates for this timeline.

1816: William Crawford (DR-GA)/Daniel Tompkins (DR-NY) def. Rufus King (F-MA)/Caleb Strong (F-MA)
1822: Henry Clay (R-KY)/Daniel Tompkins (R-NY) def. John Cotton Smith (F-CT)/Robert Harper (F-MD) & Thomas Worthington (D-OH)
1828: Alexander Hamilton Jr. (F-NY)/Hiram Gillet (F-NH) def. John C. Calhoun (R-SC)/Geoffrey Billings (R-MD) & Thomas Worthington (D-OH)/Samuel Luther (D-IN)
1834: John C. Calhoun (R-SC)/Giles Brandon (R-GA) def. Hiram Gillet (F-NH)/John Q. Adams (F-MA) & Samuel Luther (D-IN)/Blane Cartwright (D-OH)
1840: Victor Yates (D-PA)/Wilbur Haines (D-KY) def. Giles Brandon (R-GA)/Robert Lee (R-VA) & Peter Gallup (F-MA)/Joshua Flint (F-ME)
1846: Wilbur Haines (D-KY)/Clifford Bates (D-NY) def. William Rutherford (R-VA)/Thomas Kent (R-MD) & Victor Lang (F-RI)/Jacob North (F-PA)
1852: Robert Lee (R-VA)/James Hawthorne (R-GA) def. Hiram Callaway (D-MO)/Hugo Brandt (D-OH) & Jacob North (F-PA)/Ulysses Portman (F-ME) & Timothy Goodman (NED-NY)/Lewis Benton (NED-NJ)
1858: James Hawthorne (R-GA)/Josiah Blankenship (R-MS) def. Ronald Jackson (D-PA)/Sherman Doughty (D-CT) & Ulysees Portman (F-ME)/Lionel Anderson (F-NY)
1864: Hugo Brant (D-OH)/Frank Wilbourn (D-NY) def. Victor Roland (F-CT)/Charles Dickson (F-NY) & Horace Keeting (R-VA)/Jacob Fillmore (R-MD)
1870: John P. Quincy (D-MO)/Cameron Sauer (D-IA) def. Jacob McClain (F-CT)/Brandon Gallup (F-MA)

Awesome! Now this I didn't have a separate list made up, so this is useful.

 

[Zoidberg12]

Victor Dunmore Lang (August 25, 1799-September 6, 1881), Senator from Rhode Island and Federalist Presidential candidate in the election of 1846. IOTL he was named John Dunmore Lang and was a Scottish-born Australian minister, writer, and politician. IITL his parents immigrated to the United States from Scotland shortly before his birth.

Sherman Thomas Doughty (1773-September 26, 1870), naval architect, Democratic Senator, Governor of Connecticut and elder statesman. IITL he was named William Doughty and was just a naval architect. IITL he was inspired to go into politics after the United States lost the War of 1812. Latter in life, he was a respected elder statesman. At the age of 85, he was the Democratic Vice-Presidential candidate in the 1858 election.

John Parson Quincy (January 17, 1802-November 30, 1882), Democratic Mayor of St. Louis and 15th President of the United States of America. IITL he was named Josiah Quincy, Jr. and was Mayor of Boston. IITL Quincy, the son of Josiah Quincy III, decided to move west from Massachusetts to Missouri.

Clifford Bates (1788-October 12, 1862), Democratic Governor of New York and Vice President from 1846 to 1853. IOTL he was known as Joshua Bates and was a financier from Massachusetts. IITL he moved to New York City, became an entrepreneur, amassed a handsome fortune and got involved in local politics.

 

[Eckener]

Again, these look great!

I have noticed that in a few of your posts you've accidentally put "IITL" when I think you meant "IOTL"? Might take a look. But I love the posts and the pics. Thanks

 

[Zoidberg12]

Lewis Swan Benton (June 12, 1810-July 6, 1888), Democratic representative from New Jersey and New England Democratic vice presidential candidate in the 1852 election. IOTL he was named Charles Swan Benton and was a Representative from New York.

Hiram Callaway (January 16, 1814-August 16, 1880), Democratic presidential candidate in the 1852 election. IOTL he was named Shadrack Callaway and was a Colonel in the Tennessee Militia and a farm owner in Tennessee who later moved to Missouri. IITL he moves to Ohio and also gets into politics.

Peter Gallup (January 30, 1796-September 29, 1856) Federalist Governor of Massachusetts and presidential candidate in the 1840 election. IOTL he was named Albert Gallup and was a Representative from New York.

Hiram Ransom Gillet (January 27, 1800-December 12, 1875), Federalist Governor of New Hampshire and Presidential candidate in the 1834 election. IOTL he was named Ransom Hooker Gillet and was a Representative from New York.

Blane Thomas Cartwright (November 3, 1793-January 20, 1868), Governor of Maine and Democratic Vice Presidential candidate in the 1834 election. IOTL he was named Samuel Adolphus Cartwright and was a physician who worked in the antebellum South. IITL he moved to Maine from Virginia shortly after graduating from medical school.

Horace Horatio Hypolitus Keeting (August 11, 1799-November 1, 1866), Republican Presidential candidate in the 1864 election. IOTL he was named William Hypolitus Keeting and was a geologist.

Hugo Brandt (October 23, 1812-November 22, 1891), 14th President of the United States and the man who saved and reformed the Union.

Ulysses Portman (August 21, 1806-December 11, 1863), Federalist Presidential candidate in the 1858 election and President of the Confederation of American States.

Lionel Anderson (June 1, 1814-October 21, 1900), Federalist Mayor of New York City and Federalist vice presidential candidate in the 1858 election. IOTL he was named Charles Anderson and was a Governor of Ohio.

Jacob Millard Fillmore (January 7, 1800-October 29, 1885), Republican Senator from Maryland and Republican Vice Presidential candidate in the 1864 election. IOTL he was President Millard Fillmore. IITL he and family moved from New York to Maryland shortly after the War of 1812 due to the economic woes in New York as a result of the British invasion of said state during said war.

Timothy Adolphus Goodman, born Timothy Adolphus Gutmann (January 12, 1819-September 24, 1884), Mayor of New York City and New England Democrat presidential candidate in the 1852 election. IOTL he was named Adolphe Gutmann and was a German musician who was a pupil of and friends with Chopin. IITL his parents immigrated from Germany to the United States before his birth. His family changed their surname from Gutmann to Goodman when he was fifteen years old in 1834.

Charles Gustavus Dickson (December 2, 1823-November 24, 1894), Federalist Senator from New York and vice presidential candidate in the 1864 election. IOTL he was named Oskar Dickson and was a Swedish industrialist and philanthropist of Scottish origin. IITL his family immigrated to the United States before his birth.

 

[Zoidberg12]

Jacob McClain (September 11, 1817-April 4, 1895), Federalist Governor of Connecticut and presidential candidate in the 1870 election. He was descended from Scottish and Scotch-Irish immigrants.

Victor Roland (October 8, 1821-December 30, 1915), Federalist Governor of Connecticut and presidential candidate in the 1864 election. His ancestors on his father's side were Frenchmen were fled from France during the Reign of Terror and the French Revolution.

Josiah Blakenship (March 30, 1811-November 11, 1862), Vice President from 1859 to 1862 and the last Vice President of the Old Union.

Frank Wilbourn (July 9, 1810-September 12, 1905), Democratic politician from New York and Vice President under Hugo Brandt.

Brandon Gallup (February 24, 1823-April 29, 1893), ATL son of Peter Gallup, Federalist Mayor of Boston and vice presidential candidate in the 1870 election.

Trent Galletin Camden (May 23, 1801-July 30, 1876), Attorney General during the Presidency of Robert Lee. IOTL he was named Peter Galletin Camden and was a Mayor of St. Louis.

Manuel Ortega (May 12, 1786-November 12, 1845), liberal President of Mexico during the 1830s and 1840s. IOTL this is an illustration of OTL Mexican President Ignacio Comonfort. This illustration looks somewhat different from some of the other depictions of Comonfort, so it seems appropriate for this to be another person IITL. He was also an ATL relative of José Francisco Ortega, a Spanish soldier and early settler of Alta California.

Miguel Lazarvado (June 26, 1794-April 6, 1846) President from Mexico for less than five months from November 12, 1845 until his assassination on April 6, 1846.

Raul Guerra aka Emperor Raul I (March 31, 1799-October 9, 1879), military officer, strongman and President and Emperor of Mexico. IOTL this is an illustration of Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, albeit with a mustache and a thinner nose. Again, since this illustration is different from the other depictions of Santa Anna, it seems appropriate for this to be another person ITTL.

An illustration of the assassination of President John C. Calhoun by Hiram Polk (1812-December 15, 1838) on May 9, 1838. No photographs of Hiram Polk survive. He was executed on December 15, 1838 in Philadelphia.

 

[Geordie]

An interesting start to a very different United States tl.

Don't know enough about the US between 1812 and the ACW to give much in the way of concrete feedback, but it is an interesting and enjoyable read.

One tiny nitpick on your alt-Canada name: while I think the inspiration for the name is really cool, I feel that Boreala and Borealan roll easier off the tongue than Borealia and Borealian.

Of course, I might be alone in this opinion, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

 

[Zoidberg12]

Again, these look great!

I have noticed that in a few of your posts you've accidentally put "IITL" when I think you meant "IOTL"? Might take a look. But I love the posts and the pics. Thanks

Your welcome!

Thanks for pointing that out. Some time soon I'll go back and edit my posts where need be.

I have some questions.

-With the 1830 revolutions being butterflied, does Belgium still exist in this timeline?

-Does the German Confederation still exist?

-Whats going on in Mexico and in South America?

 

[Geordie]

I don't see how Belgium can exist without the 1830 revolutions. What that means for France, the Netherlands, and the people who became Belgian in OTL, I couldn't say.