Was Warren justified?

Well, was he?

  • Total voters
    49

Nerdlinger

Was Earl Warren justified in attacking the colonization fleet?

In the Tosev timeline, President Earl Warren launched an unprovoked nuclear attack on the Race's colonization fleet in 1962, destroying twelve defenseless Race starships and killing roughly two million Lizard civilians in cold sleep. Warren attempted to get away with this action by keeping secret from the Race which of the three nuclear-armed not-empires (US, USSR, and Germany) was responsible for the attack. When Sam Yeager discovered who was behind it and, through Straha, revealed evidence to the Race implicating the United States, Warren allowed the Race to retaliate by nuking Indianapolis rather than face war or, as the Race offered as an alternative, dismantle the American space program. Warren then hanged himself after assuring the public that only he was to blame for the attack on the colonization fleet.

Thoughts?

(Inspired by this comment in the other thread.)
 
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The Red

When you look at the devastation and famine the survivors caused, he should have hit him harder. He would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for old denture face.
 

Nivek

Hell No, why he was the one who Nuke The Race? even the Nazis would have been credible(the evulz), but again, that would mean something more political complex(like a warning or a revengence), but at the end, only 4 millons of sentient being(both Humans and Tau Cetians) die for a 'folly'.

that was one of turtledove's 'slips' heck even that kill some of the good hard political and sci-fi background
 

Esopo

Banned
Yes he was, for to try to free earth from a racist alien rutheless hegemony is a good thing.
 

Trebuchet

He was running a huge risk for uncertain gain in attacking a small proportion of the civilian element of the Lizards' occupation.

So, even from a purely amoral, military-minded point of view, he was unjustified. He ran a massive risk of igniting an all-out thermonuclear war over his actions, for negligible net gain. I think I mentioned on the other thread that all humanity needed to do was pretend to be nice and stall for half a century. At that point, a hard line could be taken on behalf of the governments-in-exile of half the planet.
 
Georgepatton

Georgepatton

Trebuchet said:
He was running a huge risk for uncertain gain in attacking a small proportion of the civilian element of the Lizards' occupation.

So, even from a purely amoral, military-minded point of view, he was unjustified. He ran a massive risk of igniting an all-out thermonuclear war over his actions, for negligible net gain. I think I mentioned on the other thread that all humanity needed to do was pretend to be nice and stall for half a century. At that point, a hard line could be taken on behalf of the governments-in-exile of half the planet.
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I think the problem with the 'wait until we're better than they are' strategy is that the Race may catch on to it, and sterilize the planet before we can stop them.
 

Nivek

Trebuchet said:
He was running a huge risk for uncertain gain in attacking a small proportion of the civilian element of the Lizards' occupation.

So, even from a purely amoral, military-minded point of view, he was unjustified. He ran a massive risk of igniting an all-out thermonuclear war over his actions, for negligible net gain. I think I mentioned on the other thread that all humanity needed to do was pretend to be nice and stall for half a century. At that point, a hard line could be taken on behalf of the governments-in-exile of half the planet.
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This is the answer, was a gamble and at the end, he lost it, but at the same time that made some of the effect for the future, like that the human must become superior over the Race to survive, but nobody would have think about it, isn't it? So that was a Batman Gambit in how the humans will act?
 

Trebuchet

Georgepatton said:
I think the problem with the 'wait until we're better than they are' strategy is that the Race may catch on to it, and sterilize the planet before we can stop them.
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The best strategy is not necessarily the perfect strategy. Delaying runs a risk. So does nuking a few million civilians when the Lizards have warned that to do so is to resume the war - a war that, at the current time, you cannot win. One risk is much, much greater than the other.

Nivek said:
This is the answer, was a gamble and at the end, he lost it, but at the same time that made some of the effect for the future, like that the human must become superior over the Race to survive, but nobody would have think about it, isn't it? So that was a Batman Gambit in how the humans will act?
All human parties already knew humanity must obtain the upper hand in technology to prevail. All of them were quite willing to maintain a strong level of solidarity - witness the attempts of the Nazis to get the US and USSR on board with their war, and the diplomacy on behalf of each other when one nation is backed into a corner.

Warren ran enormous risks for very little gain. It was a foolish and mad move, and resulted in millions of deaths for nothing.
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CT23

Here's my thoughts:

I wouldn't have done what he did were I in Warren's place, however I also thing Sam Yeager did the wrong thing.
 

scholar

Banned
Was he justified in doing so? Yes, depending on how you define justified.

But was he right in doing so? The answer to that is more complex, but in my own view he wasn't.
 
modelcitizen

modelcitizen

Like he said, it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Here comes the colonization fleet, which is basically almost a guarantee of the Race having much more incentive to re-open hostilities and push for a little more elbow room.

It boiled down to cold numerical reckoning.



(BTW, I voted that Yeager was justified, too. :eek:)
 

Nerdlinger

I'm not yet weighing in on whether or not Warren was justified in ordering the attack, but I will say that it was a damnfool idea. Killed a lot of Lizards, sure, but it was only a small fraction of the entire colonization fleet, all while running the very real risk of the Race (at best) glassing the United States or (at worst) the whole planet. Humanity was incredibly lucky to have "only" lost Indianapolis. If you're going to run a risk like that, you'd better make sure you wipe out both fleets, not just a dozen ships.
 
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