Was Tsarist Russia a Space Filling Empire?

I actually do think that space-filling empires can be justified, so long as the core of that empire is sufficiently determined, brutal when it needs to be but not when it doesn't, and can present sufficient justification for its existence towards its core populace.

^This. Problem is, as mentioned, that script and novel writers working in mass media generally do not do a good job creating plausible reasons for the formation of a space-filling empire. It's been present so many times it's now repeatedly ridiculed.

I wanted to make this point. ISIS is a real life Randomid Caliphate. Just about the only criteria it doesn't meet are covering the entire Middle East and suffering from no resistance within its territories.

Had this scenario been a written TL before the whole affair, we all would have laughed at the ridiculousness and packaged the author a Vlad Tepes award. Now it's just genuinely depressing.
 
I actually do think that space-filling empires can be justified, so long as the core of that empire is sufficiently determined, brutal when it needs to be but not when it doesn't, and can present sufficient justification for its existence towards its core populace.
kinda like Nineteen Eighty-Four, then? (if we take Ingsoc's word about the world at face value, that is)
It was more fun to use before the Islamic state was declared.
it's all fun and games until someone gets their head chopped off :( there isn't any better emoticon to represent the required level of remorse
 
Last edited:
Look at the posts above and immediately below yours; most Empires have nuance and context; Space-Filling-Empires don't. They're basically no more than 'this group controls this large area not because of a superior military/economy/logistics/terrain/bureaucracy, but because I say so'.

The I disagree with the whole concept and will leave this to others. In my opinion, almost all western empires have been "space filling" since Rome. They exist because because one advanced or powerful nation claims a territory and other advanced or powerful nations accept this claim. It is irrelevant whether or not the indigenous people are actually subdued because they simply do not matter in the equation of statecraft. Almost all empires since the age of Discovery were based on these understandings, as well as most large continental settler "empires" such as the USA, Canada, etc.
 
ISIS is a real life Randomid Caliphate.

So very true :D I hope it means it's gonna implode on itself very soon.

On topic: from the map-makers perspective, Russia was definitely a space-filling blob. From the point of view of the rule, it had it's share of setbacks and revolts, and failed to modernize.
 
Since the 18th century, the whole territory west of the Ural mountains and north of China are, on maps, represented as possession of the Russian Empire, though very little Russians and many still "free" native tribes populated the area. In fact, the Tsar hadn't control about most of his claims in east.

So the question is: why do we criticize Space Filling Empires on AH maps when one of the most important nations of history was nothing more than a ... Space Filling Empire?

I believe for some of the base maps on here for there should be something showing uninhabited areas, or very scarcely populated one for the various historical maps. Anyways, most of the areas to the east were form where the invaders who pushed so many tribes into Euroe came form. It makes sense if it is a bit less populated.
 
I wanted to make this point. ISIS is a real life Randomid Caliphate. Just about the only criteria it doesn't meet are covering the entire Middle East and suffering from no resistance within its territories.

I actually do think that space-filling empires can be justified, so long as the core of that empire is sufficiently determined, brutal when it needs to be but not when it doesn't, and can present sufficient justification for its existence towards its core populace.


I feel that much of the weakness in most "Randomid" Caliphate TL's is a lack of knowledge of Fiqh and terms by which the Caliphate rules. Also most do not know correct terms and explanations for why their state is the way it is, such as the Umayyad would easily fit a Randomid caliphate esque style and is the basis for such TL's. The only problem I have is the lack of religious strife within said caliphate TL's (I haven't seen a tl on a caliphate on thus forum yet).
 
u need to chill, its not that big of a deal honestly, go back to hosting games that last half a day lmao

ot: people are just writing elitists. so many IRL things were space filling, even if they had the "reasons" to be space filling. its a writing trope. people need to get their heads out of their behinds. its like those people who complain abt mary sues for being 'unrealistic' even tho its not. y'all just need to let people actually ENJOY what they write instead of scaring them away for being 'unrealistic' when its not even that unrealistic LMAO

I'm just going to say: Mary Sues aren't bad because they're "unrealistic", they're bad because they're a story of people getting their way without adequate obstacles, aka not working for what they have.
 
Last edited:
I wanted to make this point. ISIS is a real life Randomid Caliphate. Just about the only criteria it doesn't meet are covering the entire Middle East and suffering from no resistance within its territories.

A ruthless organisation managing to step into a power vacuum and take land they wouldn't be able to in the normal course of things doesn't seem very space-filler-empire-ish to me, especially since it's only been a couple of years since ISIS got really notable. Get back to me in a couple of generations when they've taken over the whole Middle East and the rest of the world has just sat back and accepted this.
 
lol thats not unrealistic. a lot of people dont work for what they have. somethings are easier. thats life buddy. harry potter is a bestseller and hes a mary sue. its called: WRITING ELITISM and its dumb. im js bro calm down

I am calm.

Let me make this clear: Unless you're criticizing groups that actually have power, accusations of 'Elitism' are just a way of demeaning people who speak out against those who want something that is actually nourishing.

You don't need to know how to cook in order to know that some foods are bad for you despite tasting great; it's the same with writing.

Just as sugar and potato chips are bad for you without fruits and fresh vegetables, Mary Sues and Space-Filling-Empires are bad for people who want a taste of AH.

Also, you insulted me with petty attacks first. 'Go back to running games that last just a day, really?'

You sound like you're elitist towards Shared Worlds yourself.
 
Since the 18th century, the whole territory west of the Ural mountains and north of China are, on maps, represented as possession of the Russian Empire, though very little Russians and many still "free" native tribes populated the area. In fact, the Tsar hadn't control about most of his claims in east.

So the question is: why do we criticize Space Filling Empires on AH maps when one of the most important nations of history was nothing more than a ... Space Filling Empire?

Well, it depends on your definition of Space Filling Empire.

- "Very few Russians"... true, most of the time.

- "Many still "free" native tribes"... that's not that obvious; maybe closer to the Arctic Ocean, maybe deep in the forest; but mostly the Russian tsar made it perfectly clear who was in charge there.

- "The Tsar hadn't control about most of his claims in the East"... Actually he had. The population paid tribute (or taxes, whatever you call it). It was mostly in kind, not in money, I mean. It depended on what any particular region was rich with, but mostly furs.
Extracting tribute from the tribes is control in my book.
 
I am calm.

Let me make this clear: Unless you're criticizing groups that actually have power, accusations of 'Elitism' are just a way of demeaning people who speak out against those who want something that is actually nourishing.

You don't need to know how to cook in order to know that some foods are bad for you despite tasting great; it's the same with writing.

Just as sugar and potato chips are bad for you without fruits and fresh vegetables, Mary Sues and Space-Filling-Empires are bad for people who want a taste of AH.

Also, you insulted me with petty attacks first. 'Go back to running games that last just a day, really?'

You sound like you're elitist towards Shared Worlds yourself.
Shame he deleted his post. He doesn't seem to understand what Mary Sues are in relation to Harry Potter.
 
Well, it depends on your definition of Space Filling Empire.

- "Very few Russians"... true, most of the time.

- "Many still "free" native tribes"... that's not that obvious; maybe closer to the Arctic Ocean, maybe deep in the forest; but mostly the Russian tsar made it perfectly clear who was in charge there.

- "The Tsar hadn't control about most of his claims in the East"... Actually he had. The population paid tribute (or taxes, whatever you call it). It was mostly in kind, not in money, I mean. It depended on what any particular region was rich with, but mostly furs.
Extracting tribute from the tribes is control in my book.

Right, it's complicated. Not only is what you pointed out relevant, but:

1. Russian servicemen and those of native stock entering Russian service (local aristocrats entered regular Russian armies as privates and officers all the time) were paid salaries in goods on a regular basis from the very beginning, so the level of government involvement is badly underestimated in the common understanding.

2. Borders were (once again, from the beginning and into the late 18th c.) contested militarily by the Khanates down south who also would have liked to collect the yasak but were successfully defended by the Russian cossacks and regulars, so the presence wasn't as ephemeral as suggested.

3. The Qing acknowledged those borders, as did the Koreans obviously. The French, British and Americans needed some persuasion in the 18th c. regarding the Far East and Russian America but they seemed to have acknowledged it too.

4. The Russians explored and mapped the entire region pretty thoroughly by the end of the 17th c. and contacted all the nations inhabiting it. It took quite a few expeditions that like, froze to death or mutinied into incoherence, but they did it, which is more than can be said of many other colonising powers in their own claims at the time.

5. Trade: from the mid-17th c and onwards there was a good deal of trade happening, totally new (overland and long-distance) trade routes being established. That is also a sign that your presence is solid enough for the market as well as foreign governments to take note.
 
Top