I figure they'll start trying as soon as the defeat of Japan gives them a demonstration that they're possible and just how effective they are. They'll probably take even longer to develop them than the Soviets of course, but if North Korea could develop them by the 1990s, then Nazi Germany probably could by the 1970s.
Was Nazi Germany sustainable?
- Thread starter Al-Za’im
- Start date
The problem is that they’re higher up on the priority list then Japan.
Yeah, but this would require the US to use the nuke in the first place. If Nazi Germany is still around and the war is still going (this is higly likely even if the US for some reason wanted peace as the Nazis leadership costantly refused the idea), Washington may simply not use the bomb to make sure Germania doesn't start creating its own nuclear arsenal (like it happened in Calbear's Aglo-American Nazi War)
That's possible, but I'd consider that unlikely. If it's choosing between using the bomb and invading Japan and taking enormous casualties in doing so, they'll almost certainly choose the bomb. Especially if Germany is still alive and kicking, I imagine the US's attitude may be to try to defeat Japan as quickly as possible so they can focus all their energy on Germany.
You have a poin, but this opens another question: does Nazi germany have the resources to create a bomb? In OTL the two Nazis nuclear projects suffered a costant lack of funds and went nowhere close to the creation of a functional nuclear device (the fact the scientists in charge hated each other didn't help)
Ypu brought up North Korea but the nation actually had allies willingly to help its nuclear project. Literally nobody would willingly assist Nazis Germany in this TL as Berlin's crimes would make Stalin look like Saint Peter and you still got a government who refused basic science because "jews" and had no way to spy on the Western Allies
No one says you have to invade japan. Let them eat each other till someone’s willing to surrender. Nothing compels you to massacre your own troops. Blockade and bomb.
To be fair the Japanese government at the time was probably willingly to let the entire nation starve in the name of "honor"
China might also be a good comparison; at the time a very poor and underdeveloped country that only a decade ago finished a very long and brutal civil war, while fighting off an invasion by a genocidal neighbour. They got some help from the Soviets at first, but that help was soon cut off. Point being that even countries with a lot of strikes against them have been able to develop the bomb in OTL, so I imagine that Germany, despite its technological sector hamstrung by ideology and its distrust of "Jewish science", could probably get a functional bomb by the mid to late 1950s. They lacked funding in OTL, but I imagine that funding would be increased once they knew it was possible, highly effective, and that the Americans had already developed it. They would need a counter.
That is possible, true, but given that the Allies in OTL seemed to be choosing between invade or atomic bomb, I don't think they ever considered that course of action, and I imagine it's just as unlikely that they would in this world, since that would mean a long and drawn-out war in the Pacific (likely lasting until the late 1940s), when the European Theatre is much more pressing than in OTL.
Once Hitler dies, I think there is room for some pragmatic reform.
There will be less ass kissing and more room for limited technocracy.
It will fix enough to stay alive at the very least.
There will be less ass kissing and more room for limited technocracy.
It will fix enough to stay alive at the very least.
kham_coc
Banned
Or, by virtue of killing anyone that wasn't an ethnic german, it's a more stable state, after all you can't collapse into your constituent republic if they don't exist.
That being said, I agree with you.
I’m no expert but I think so since control of continental Europe would give the Reich just as many resources as the USSR had IOTL after losing almost 30 million citizens and suffering enormous economic damage if not more. I’d say within a decade they could build and successfully test a nuclear weapon. As a point of reference in 1960 OTL the USSR had 1,600 nuclear weapons.
I disagree considering Hitler’s inner circle would still be alive and ever more fanatical. There can’t be any moderation with the likes of Himmler, Goebbels, Bormann and Heydrich in charge. Göring was the official heir and moderate by comparison (but still a true believer) but assuming Hitler doesn’t choose someone else as the heir before he dies I can easily imagine Himmler (possibly with the help of the other Nazi leaders) deposing him and taking charge. One can only imagine what nightmares would have ensued as a result. With Himmler in charge another (possibly nuclear) war with the WAllies is nearly guaranteed given his obsession with conquest and the supremacy of the Aryan race.
Assuming they have the power to take control. Wehrmacht might try something
They’d be fine with Göring as the leader for various reasons. Assuming Hitler dies in the 1950s the Wehrmacht leadership would already have been thoroughly vetted for ideological purity and Himmler and Bormann would have far more power and influence than they did IOTL along with having control over many of the levers of power in the form of the Nazi Party, SS, Waffen-SS, police and Gestapo. This isn’t factoring in what Goebbels and other high ranking Nazis could bring if they decide to support Himmler’s coup. In the event of a Nazi victory Himmler would certainly be making sure he has enough followers and true believers in the right places to make sure his attempt to take control once Hitler dies in the future successful. He was the perfect combination of ruthless, manipulative and ambitious and the same applies to Heydrich.
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This is assuming that Heydrich and Himmler liked each other, which they didn't. Himmler wasn't half as smart or politically savy as Heydrich, and would have never reached power while he lived. Himmler liked his puppets neat and close to him - Heydrich was anything but. The moment he got the Gestapo up and running he was immediatelly fighting Himmler for the who was closest to Hitler spot, and let me tell you, if anything, Heydrich would have won. He was the man with a heart of iron for a reason.
To me, it is probably that in the case of Hitler's death a moderee cadre of army officers and Nazi officials takes power. Goering would probably became Fuhrer, backed by a mix of the Wermacht and the Nazis. Similar to Stalin, nobody would have liked the Beria of Germany, Himmler, in power, and for all of the sinister shit surrounding Reinhard Heydrich, he was much less of a braggart and retard than Himmler.
Resources? Maybe. Manhattan was incredibly expensive, but more importantly it used simply enormous amount of electrical power The U.S. had the TVA hydro electric resources to run all the centrifuges (and there were a huge number of them, another manufacturing issue).
What it lacked was the science. The Reich never even achieved a sustained controlled reaction (i.e. no nuclear reactor), which was critical to breeding plutonium. Plutonium was the key to a sustainable program, Manhattan gave up on the Highly Enriched Uranium (HEU) bomb path fairly quickly. There were only a total of five "Little Boy" Mark I bombs ever assembled, vastly expensive and much less productive (15kT) than the Mark III "Fat Man" (20 -49kT). There were later composite Pu/HEU physics packages, but even there you absolutely require nuclear breeder reactors. There is also the need to come up with a new plastic explosive and new theory for implosion (the "gun-style" process for achieving critical mass failed with plutonium, the reaction had to be started by compressing the fissile material with a carefully designed shell of hard shaped plastice explosive lenses that were detonated at the same instant (both the method of creating the lenses AND the wiring had to be invented during Manhattan). The Reich had chased most of the best and brightest out of Europe and Manhattan had needed ALL the best and brightest it could lay its hands on .
The topic has been thoroughly discussed in these threads. The actual killing and enslavement part of the plan would be easy as shown by the Reich’s countless atrocities IOTL when they were busy fighting a war against the three most powerful countries in the world. The real issue is whether or not they’d get the number of settlers they desired (12 million) and whether they could successfully colonize Eastern Europe and make it a profitable endeavor. The plan was expected to cost close to the entire German GDP in 1941 over the span of several decades. More detailed information can be found in the books Heinrich Himmler by Peter Longerich and The Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze.
Considering the number of brainwashed fanatics, patriots and opportunists available in a post war Nazi Germany and the fact that the regime would use force if necessary it’s plausible they would be able to get close to their goal over several decades. IOTL members of the SS and Wehrmacht would actually have arguments as to the size of their anticipated farms in Eastern Europe after the war was over and many young people fantasized about living as settlers (Hitler Youth, BDM etc). Would they get the exact number of settlers desired? Probably not.
As long as Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels etc are in charge with the resources of the continent under their control I don’t see why not. They were devoted fanatics and true believers to a degree rarely seen and constantly ignored reality in favor of their twisted ideology. Winning the war would only vindicate their beliefs and drive them on and there were more than enough true believers and loyal followers (and those scared to go against the grain) in the military, SS, police, Party and government to ensure it happened. As an example Himmler said the day Hitler approved Generalplan Ost in 1942 was the happiest day of his life. Even if it means driving the Greater Germanic Reich to its economic doom they’re going to stay the course as they did IOTL. The regime would have to collapse for Generalplan Ost as we know it to be abandoned. The Reich and its leadership were too far gone and too monstrous to ever turn into a “merely” authoritarian right wing regime. Even if they don’t accomplish the plan as desired that doesn’t reverse the tens of millions of Slavs killed or enslaved and the cities razed in the process. As myself and others have said Generalplan Ost’s completion would have guaranteed the Reich’s collapse shortly afterwards.
Here’s a relevant budget breakdown of Generalplan Ost:
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I read a book about 10 years ago (sorry, I don't remember the title) about how the Reich was a literal kleptocracy. While most people know about the stolen art and gold, even more mundane items were stolen en masse. For two examples:
1. The German military issued military scrip currency for use in countries they occupied, and forced local shops to accept it as equal to their own. When the banking system would return it to the military, they would get nothing in return and the scrip would be reissued. Lather, rinse, repeat until the soldiers took everything, much of it being sent to the Fatherland for their families, friends, and lovers. The only difference between this and outright robbery was that it was a pinch more orderly.... It proves to me how ignorant modern-day Nazis are when they criticize central banks like the Federal Reserve as "Jewish conspiracies". There is no way the Fed is anywhere near as crooked as that.
2. The Holocaust itself was an exercise in mass theft: Household and personal items belonging to Jews who were killed were given away by the government to Germans: even mundane items like dresses and shoes.
ISTM that a government so dependent on stealing to sustain itself is going to have an economic collapse when there's nothing left to steal. They were literally killing the geese that laid the golden eggs.
I think they could last in some capacity if they win.
It‘s plausible that they commit genocide for living space on an unprecedented scale, killing over a hundred million for living space, and then change their minds. But I think that even though it will economically implode, once they have actually enslaved the survivors of Eastern Europe and moved millions of Germans out there, it seems hard to actually stop. They will have to be really committed by that point, to know what they have done and continued, will have millions living in Eastern Europe in possession of millions of slaves, and will idolize Hitler as a conqueror on par with Khan or Alexander.
Will they really call it quits after all of that?
Unlike Italian Fascism (which to me seems like a fad bound to either revert to Democracy, revert to Monarchism, or fall to Socialism), Nazism seems like a much more revolutionary system that will change the way people think on a different level. When Nazism triggers an economic collapse, that might just make convincing people to move to Eastern Europe and live off of hundreds or thousands of free acres of land with your own slave easier, as the modern economy will be worse.
It won’t be the same Nazi Germany as Germany wasn’t North Korea or Pagan, but I can see a giant Germany turning into a Pagan North Korea, or something akin to modern China.
It‘s plausible that they commit genocide for living space on an unprecedented scale, killing over a hundred million for living space, and then change their minds. But I think that even though it will economically implode, once they have actually enslaved the survivors of Eastern Europe and moved millions of Germans out there, it seems hard to actually stop. They will have to be really committed by that point, to know what they have done and continued, will have millions living in Eastern Europe in possession of millions of slaves, and will idolize Hitler as a conqueror on par with Khan or Alexander.
Will they really call it quits after all of that?
Unlike Italian Fascism (which to me seems like a fad bound to either revert to Democracy, revert to Monarchism, or fall to Socialism), Nazism seems like a much more revolutionary system that will change the way people think on a different level. When Nazism triggers an economic collapse, that might just make convincing people to move to Eastern Europe and live off of hundreds or thousands of free acres of land with your own slave easier, as the modern economy will be worse.
It won’t be the same Nazi Germany as Germany wasn’t North Korea or Pagan, but I can see a giant Germany turning into a Pagan North Korea, or something akin to modern China.