Was it possible to colonize China?

Could 18-19th century China be colonized? Colonized in the meaning of being ruled by european powers, either as a direct colony (Like Madagascar), or being ruled by a company (Like India), or having parts of China directly integrated in some other countries (like Russia ruling Xinjiang and Manchuria, Japan ruling hainan, etc
 
Could 18-19th century China be colonized? Colonized in the meaning of being ruled by european powers, either as a direct colony (Like Madagascar), or being ruled by a company (Like India), or having parts of China directly integrated in some other countries (like Russia ruling Xinjiang and Manchuria, Japan ruling hainan, etc
It can be done,as long as an arrangement could be made between the different European powers.
 

Minty_Fresh

Banned
Taiwan actually was briefly colonized by the Dutch. That would be doable had they put more money into the endeavor and not allowed it to fall apart.
 
There was a joke that went something like:
Emperor is afraid of foreigners,
foreigners are afraid of Chinese,
Chinese are afraid of the Emperor.

Outright colonisation was unlikely. Great powers relied on Chinese government to keep their people in line. Spheres of influence were just as profitable as direct colonies would be, but without need to bother occupying territory themselves.
Basically the same reason why UK never got rid of all Indian Rajas, but up to eleven. Getting rid of Chinese Emperor would be much more expensive than some guy with few villages who calls himself "great king".
 
Great powers relied on Chinese government to keep their people in line. Spheres of influence were just as profitable as direct colonies would be, but without need to bother occupying territory themselves.
Basically the same reason why UK never got rid of all Indian Rajas, but up to eleven. Getting rid of Chinese Emperor would be much more expensive than some guy with few villages who calls himself "great king".
I think it would be possible but it would have to be a very gradual and very concerted effort.

For example, the French did colonise Kwang Tchéou in the South of China in continuation of their Vietnamese colony. Then again, they were in a unique situation precisely because of this colony.

Maybe an extension from Hong Kong or Russia could be a starting point? You would get actually colonised zones, with a stripped out China ruled by the Emperor and "counselled" by a consortium of powers. Or a plain old consortiums of banks like Tunisia
 
Interesting. Do you have a quick one post description of this situation, or a link to more about this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_troika
:D

More seriously, all I have is that on the French wikipedia page:
Création de la commission financière internationale (1869)[modifier | modifier le code]
Incapable de rembourser ses créanciers, Sadok Bey accepte le 5 juillet 1869 la création d’une commission financière internationale chargée de gérer les finances de la régence6. Son comité exécutif est composé de deux Tunisiens et d’un Français. Le comité de contrôle comprend deux Italiens, deux Anglais et deux Français. La régence de Tunis n’est déjà plus souveraine chez elle.
Basically, Tunisia tried really hard to modernise but had some bad luck, notably with harvests. As a consequence, the European powers created a commission to oversee the reimbursement of the debt. This led directly to controlling the country, as controlling its finances is basically the same thing.

Exact as what happened to Greece so.
 

As an Irishman, you are describing my arch-enemies! Slash benefactors!

Basically, Tunisia tried really hard to modernise but had some bad luck, notably with harvests. As a consequence, the European powers created a commission to oversee the reimbursement of the debt. This led directly to controlling the country, as controlling its finances is basically the same thing.

I see. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!
 
As an Irishman, you are describing my arch-enemies! Slash benefactors!
Come on you, boys in blue!

The European powers were huge fans of the concerted double whammy for colonisation.

Fo example, France took bits of Thailand. Thailand asked the UK to ask the French to stop it which they did. Then, as payment for their good service, the UK took a bit of Thai territory. I just love that bit.

Anyway. China would probably not ask anybody to guarantee independance, but maybe with a PoD around the 100 days? Or something like that?

Say, Third Opium war or the like, the European power "force" modernisation by acquiring unlimited monopolies over rail links or something equivalent. Maybe some officials at the local level see that as an actual good opportunity to not get stomped every twenty years by foreign devils.
Debts accumulate in several areas but after a few years, something causes the debt to stop being reimbursed. Bad harvests, or even better an uprising. The European powers come in to re-establish order and never quite leave.

After a while, the Chinese Emperor or local prefect is forced to aknowledge this, while still being nominally in charge.

Wash, rinse, repeat.
 
I think it would be possible but it would have to be a very gradual and very concerted effort.
Yes.
Possible, but harder than everywhere else: China was just too big and populous to directly subjugate right of the bat.
It took British centuries to fully subjugate India, and India conveniently divided itself into hundred little principalities after fall of Mughal Empire.
 
Yes.
Possible, but harder than everywhere else: China was just too big and populous to directly subjugate right of the bat.
It took British centuries to fully subjugate India, and India conveniently divided itself into hundred little principalities after fall of Mughal Empire.

What if the qing dynasty collapsed due the han X Manchu conflict, thus dividing it into many warlord-emperors?
 
What if the qing dynasty collapsed due the han X Manchu conflict, thus dividing it into many warlord-emperors?
China might've lucked out in that they collapsed into warlordism while world was busy with World War to exploit this.
Delay WWI couple years, if China still collapses, and everyone jumps in to take their piece.
 
China might've lucked out in that they collapsed into warlordism while world was busy with World War to exploit this.
Delay WWI couple years, if China still collapses, and everyone jumps in to take their piece.

OR collapse China into warlordism before WWI hits at OTL time.
 
Could 18-19th century China be colonized? Colonized in the meaning of being ruled by european powers, either as a direct colony (Like Madagascar), or being ruled by a company (Like India), or having parts of China directly integrated in some other countries (like Russia ruling Xinjiang and Manchuria, Japan ruling hainan, etc

In the 18th century It was not possible. China was a unified great power, the Richer country in the world And It dit not yet lag technologically enough to make It possible for the european powers to break It up.

India's conquest and colonization was possible because of political division.
 
In the 18th century It was not possible. China was a unified great power, the Richer country in the world And It dit not yet lag technologically enough to make It possible for the european powers to break It up.

In the 19th century it was certainly possible. British ironclads blew the war junks (the closest European ship to this was either a Venetian galleass or a Caravel) apart in the Opium Wars (1839-42 and 1856-60). Then China had Taiping rebellion, which pretty much murdered the country. Then you had the Boxer rebellion in 1900, which showed how fragile the nation had become.

Bring in gatling guns in the 1870s, it would not be too hard to push through a million guys using medieval weapons.

As long as the British (or whoever, but Britain seems the most likely) keep the Qing dynasty as a puppet for a decade or two while they consolidate their rule, it is imaginable. This could even alter WWI, as the Germans and AH were part of the '8 nation alliance', so would feel more respected by the powers of the Entente (not actually formed until 1904, so maybe butterflied away)

- BNC
 
In the 19th century it was certainly possible. British ironclads blew the war junks (the closest European ship to this was either a Venetian galleass or a Caravel) apart in the Opium Wars (1839-42 and 1856-60). Then China had Taiping rebellion, which pretty much murdered the country. Then you had the Boxer rebellion in 1900, which showed how fragile the nation had become.

Bring in gatling guns in the 1870s, it would not be too hard to push through a million guys using medieval weapons.

As long as the British (or whoever, but Britain seems the most likely) keep the Qing dynasty as a puppet for a decade or two while they consolidate their rule, it is imaginable. This could even alter WWI, as the Germans and AH were part of the '8 nation alliance', so would feel more respected by the powers of the Entente (not actually formed until 1904, so maybe butterflied away)

- BNC

That's possible only if the British are willing to sacrifice a ton of time and money on China, to do something they could have reaped the rewards on without the efforts.

Keeping a puppet emperor changes nothing. That's what happened in Manchukuo, and it failed. They might take the coastal regions, but they would never succeed in "conquering/colonizing China".

Instead, they could rely on the Chinese emperor to keep China in line. No Chinese bureaucrat or person would recognize British authority.

It's just not a feasible idea, and nobody wants to try.
 
China by the 19th century had most of the wealth that the Spanish brought back from America, and was taking in a lot of British silver. Getting that is a pretty good reason for colonisation.

- BNC
 
China by the 19th century had most of the wealth that the Spanish brought back from America, and was taking in a lot of British silver. Getting that is a pretty good reason for colonisation.

- BNC
And that wealth was quickly drained by a mix of opium, corruption, and wars. The British could make more selling opium and taking silver in treaties than by ruling China.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
If the Ming collapse is not followed by Kangxi's consolidation but if instead China fragments into increasing #s of warring states, not on track to reconsolidate for over a century, and if a European power has the right strokes of luck, maybe, just maybe, different parts of China could become an "India" for various European powers like Britain, France or Russia.


Examples- Wu Sangui helps the Shun beat the Qing, but the Shun fail to establish a legitimate dynasty, the three feudatories and Ming revivalist revolts prosper and become entwined with European power politics, early "treaty ports" and factories are more widely established, there are rebellions or civil wars every generation and so on.
 
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