Was Henri Petain Really a Fascist?

[Thucydides]

By this I mean did he really believe in it as an ideology? And if he did not who could have emerged as a fascist leader in France if it became like Germany?

If you need background I can give you a loose part of a timeline I'm working on.

 

[lothaw]

I always considered Petain a tragic figure. A once great man trying to make the best of a terrible situation.

Was he a true Fascist? No.

He did the best he could for France under the Nazi jackboot. Just wasn't much and by 1942, I'm sure he realized what a terrible mistake he had made, though it was too late by then.

It's not like he did anything more than token efforts to fight the Allies even when they were taking his colonies.

If you're trying to snatch Petain into a Fascist party without the Germans... I'd go the anti-communism route. He was a staunch anti-communist. He did have vivid memories of the Paris Commune when he was young and I think he vowed never to let something like that happen again.

 

[Zyzzyva]

By this I mean did he really believe in it as an ideology? And if he did not who could have emerged as a fascist leader in France if it became like Germany?

If you need background I can give you a loose part of a timeline I'm working on.

He was definitely a conservative-fronting-on-reactionary, but I don't think he had any particular attraction to fascism per se. Wasn't he vaguely monarchist at times (before the Germans handed him an ideology)?

Colonel de La Roque was I think the closest France got to a homegrown fascist-specifically leader.

 

[Files]

Fascism is quite different from the paternalistic reactionary conservatism Petain espoused. For one thing, fascism has a bizarre sort of egalitarianism running through it - that is to say, "all Germans are equally better than the non-aryans, but no German is better than another German" - whereas the reactionary politics of the time was very much influenced by the aristocracies and monarchies that had (or still did) ruled their countries.

So would Petain be a fascist? No. He worked with fascists, like many other conservatives and reactionaries in Europe, in the hopes of eliminating communism, but fascism is a 20th century ideology, and Petain was firmly 19th century.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

He was an authoritarian conervative jumping in bed with fascists.

 

[Alratan]

Not a Fascist, merely a coward and a traitor.

 

[Douglas]

Not a Fascist, merely a coward and a traitor.

Easier said today from the plush world we live in today than in June 1940.

 

[Alratan]

Easier said today from the plush world we live in today than in June 1940.

Yes, of course it is. It's also true. It was his personal refusal to fight on that broke the back of the French ability to fight on. Others, who hadn't made a career out of cultivating an image as a great military hero, were willing to take the risk, but when push came to shove he turned out to be a fraud.

I know one dosen't generally dosen't speak ill of the dead, but Petain well deserved it. He was lucky that he was allowed to die in prison - I'm suprised that he didn't end up dyng an ignominious death like Mussolini.

 

[peteratwar]

But against that, one cannot deny his gallantry in WWI and how well he dealt with the French mutinies in 1917.

In 1940 he was old but still a revered figure. He was overwhelmed by what was happening to France and didn't believe anyone could resist Hitler. He determined to do the best he could for his country as when he came to power, France was lost anyway.

Who could have done better ?

 

[fhaessig]

. He determined to do the best he could for his country as when he came to power, France was lost anyway.

Who could have done better ?

http://www.1940lafrancecontinue.org/

 

[peteratwar]

My question remains.

What you have shown is just fantasy.

Given the real state of France after the invasion no-one wanted to continue apart from one or two minor exceptions.

Mind you the urgings on France to continue the fight from their Empire were made.

 

[Archibald]

Petain was a 84-year old senile man.

Mind you, it was Pierre Laval who had real power within the Vichyst governement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Laval

Food for thought: Laval was shot in 1945 while old Petain lived until its 94's, dying in 1951.

 

[Susano]

Eh, IMO its a semantci question.

Maybe, he wasnt technically fascist, but his reactionary ideology was just as bad.

 

[Alratan]

My question remains.

What you have shown is just fantasy.

Given the real state of France after the invasion no-one wanted to continue apart from one or two minor exceptions.

Minor figures, like the Prime Minister. Petain, who had been appointed to stiffen the French will to fight, point blank refused to move to North Africa to continue, and this argument triggered the fall of Reynaurd's government and French surrender.

 

[peteratwar]

No, there was no real will in French political circles to continue the fight especially as they believed that Britain wouldn't survive.

Petain remains a scapegoat for the collective failure of the French political system.

A sad pathetic figure at the end.

 

[lothaw]

Well think of it this way... would you as an American want to relocate to Guam or Puerto Rico if the US was occupied or stay home and do the best you could for the US?

It's an imperfect choice in one of the darker times of thei planet's history.

On the subject of Laval being executed and Petain allowed to live, I always thought of that as a courtesy due to service rendered during World War I.

 

[The Vet]

Well think of it this way... would you as an American want to relocate to Guam or Puerto Rico if the US was occupied or stay home and do the best you could for the US?

It's an imperfect choice in one of the darker times of thei planet's history.

On the subject of Laval being executed and Petain allowed to live, I always thought of that as a courtesy due to service rendered during World War I.

Petain had a war record to defend him, Laval hadn't

 

[Arafeel]

the was a loth of home grown french Fascist, no of whom wear active in the vicy regime. La rouce PSF was the one that did best, acctually had more meabers than the french communist and sosialist party combinde in the late 30`s. Vichy was reactioneary, but imho not fascist. A loth of people did not like the third republic.

 

[Tocomocho]

By this I mean did he really believe in it as an ideology? And if he did not who could have emerged as a fascist leader in France if it became like Germany?

If you need background I can give you a loose part of a timeline I'm working on.

If that implyes France being defeated in the GW and going revanchist (again), then Petain might be blamed for the defeat as he was a prominent general in it.

Curiously, De Gaulle seems to fill more the role (albeit loosely). He has the correct age (not like 83 YO Petain), he's charismatic, he suffered the hell of Verdun, and he pushed for tanks and planes as the way to make war in the future. In case of defeat, he would hate both Nivelle's mindless charges and Petain's "cowardice".