Was Barbarossa Doomed from the start?

Deleted member 1487

True, but how much of the German losses would have been attributed to being over extended? The rush to Moscow had them taking crazy risks to make it there by winter.
When they did have good defensive lines they held well .
With possibly lower propitiation losses the Germans would have more strength in 42 and possibly be able to take Sevastopol and leningrad. Which would have freed up a large amount of troops for minor offensive operations for the remaining campaign season
I was mainly thinking about the Soviet counterattacks in August and September around Smolensk. That was well short of what they had in mid-late October where according to Glantz they suffered around 100,000 casualties enduring Soviet offensives. My argument isn't that German forces wouldn't suffer proportionally less casualties than IOTL if they stopped after the Vyazma-Bryansk pockets when the weather stopped them, but then you're getting locked in to a long war with the US in and still a low guarantee of success.
 

thaddeus

Donor
guess my view of Leningrad first is shaped by the potential improvement(s) on the naval side, that do not require the reshuffling of large numbers of troops from other operations? in other words a large upside from small POD.

tens of thousands of Soviet forces slipped thru their fingers at Tallinn and later Hanko, whether they (and the Soviet naval guns) tipped the balance in defense of Leningrad is of course open to opinion.

if they made a stronger naval effort on the Black Sea, u-boats there from the outset, there is no seaborne evacuation by the Soviets from Odessa? and no Soviet sea link with Crimea later?

True, but how much of the German losses would have been attributed to being over extended? The rush to Moscow had them taking crazy risks to make it there by winter.
When they did have good defensive lines they held well .
With possibly lower propitiation losses the Germans would have more strength in 42 and possibly be able to take Sevastopol and leningrad. Which would have freed up a large amount of troops for minor offensive operations for the remaining campaign season

not sure whether wiki is correct on this fact

"With the advance of Axis forces into the Soviet Union, STAVKA decided to evacuate the defenders of Odessa. On the night of 14–15 October 1941, the Black Sea Fleet evacuated the garrison to Sevastopol where most of the units were later destroyed in the bitter fighting that took place there during the Defence of Sevastopol. The Black Sea Fleet also managed to evacuate 350,000 soldiers and civilians." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Odessa_(1941)#Naval_warfare

my understanding it was large numbers, but not that large?? even a fraction of those numbers captured or killed at Odessa, and the battle over Crimea would proceed much differently? (or the Soviets have to deplete other areas?)

therefore my observation for expanded German naval effort to change Barbarossa.
 
Leaving any possibility of political gentleness to try to trigger an overthrow of Stalin, or the Russians suffering a political collapse on their own (both of which were not out of the realm of possibility)

I regard them forcing the Russians to the table as very unlikely but not impossible; provided the Germans would be willing to actually accept a surrender of sorts

Skipping operation Typhoon and stopping Army Group South on the Mius River in 1941 saves enormous amounts of irreplaceable manpower and equipment; that could give them more leverage and power on the offensive in 1942 to perhaps force Russia to sue for peace if the oil fields can be interdicted

There is also the distinct possibility of the Germans ramping up their war production more intensely (whilst they where glutted with captured booty from France and Poland and had plenty of materials to do so) during the period of August 1940 - May 1941.

Dennis Showalter remarks in the blitzkrieg myth that the Germans during the fall of 1940 were producing less than 150 tanks per month, certainly not the production rate adequate to prepare for a war with Russia which was known to have 10,000 tanks
 

Deleted member 1487

Dennis Showalter remarks in the blitzkrieg myth that the Germans during the fall of 1940 were producing less than 150 tanks per month, certainly not the production rate adequate to prepare for a war with Russia which was known to have 10,000 tanks
The Soviets had about 20,000 AFVs and lost nearly all of them in 6 months. So German AFV production wasn't so much the issue, as they weren't specifically the primary arm to deal with enemy armor. It was a combination of armor, aircraft, and a variety of AT guns/AAA/and artillery. In fact in the German model the primary means of killing enemy armor was the AT gun; Rommel would actually use his armor as bait to draw British armor into AT gun ambushes rather than trying to slug it out in AFV duels. Later on the Germans had to use their armor as a means of fighting Soviet armor, but in 1941 there was plenty of flexibility in the German force structure to destroy enemy while using armor to exploit gaps in the enemy line and destroy armies in pincer moves. Because in the end the primary role of armor divisions was supposed to be to achieve deep operational/strategic objectives through their mobility and firepower, not fighting enemy armor as mobile AT gun platforms. There were already dedicated AT platforms for that.
 
Dennis Showalter remarks in the blitzkrieg myth that the Germans during the fall of 1940 were producing less than 150 tanks per month, certainly not the production rate adequate to prepare for a war with Russia which was known to have 10,000 tanks
More tanks would have been useless because the Germans were low on fuel, and just having more of them would have meant depleting oil reserves even faster than in OTL.
 

thaddeus

Donor
The Soviets had about 20,000 AFVs and lost nearly all of them in 6 months. So German AFV production wasn't so much the issue, as they weren't specifically the primary arm to deal with enemy armor. It was a combination of armor, aircraft, and a variety of AT guns/AAA/and artillery. In fact in the German model the primary means of killing enemy armor was the AT gun; Rommel would actually use his armor as bait to draw British armor into AT gun ambushes rather than trying to slug it out in AFV duels. Later on the Germans had to use their armor as a means of fighting Soviet armor, but in 1941 there was plenty of flexibility in the German force structure to destroy enemy while using armor to exploit gaps in the enemy line and destroy armies in pincer moves. Because in the end the primary role of armor divisions was supposed to be to achieve deep operational/strategic objectives through their mobility and firepower, not fighting enemy armor as mobile AT gun platforms. There were already dedicated AT platforms for that.

always think your thread on anti-tank rifle grenades would have been one of the major PODs of Barbarossa and hence WWII, the shock to Soviet system of infantry destroying tanks. along with of course tanks and AT guns.
 
The Soviets had about 20,000 AFVs and lost nearly all of them in 6 months. So German AFV production wasn't so much the issue, as they weren't specifically the primary arm to deal with enemy armor. It was a combination of armor, aircraft, and a variety of AT guns/AAA/and artillery. In fact in the German model the primary means of killing enemy armor was the AT gun; Rommel would actually use his armor as bait to draw British armor into AT gun ambushes rather than trying to slug it out in AFV duels. Later on the Germans had to use their armor as a means of fighting Soviet armor, but in 1941 there was plenty of flexibility in the German force structure to destroy enemy while using armor to exploit gaps in the enemy line and destroy armies in pincer moves. Because in the end the primary role of armor divisions was supposed to be to achieve deep operational/strategic objectives through their mobility and firepower, not fighting enemy armor as mobile AT gun platforms. There were already dedicated AT platforms for that.

Whilst I am aware of the light tanks flee to draw enemy to impale themselves on anti tank guns strategy; more armor would certainly have afforded the Germans more options, especially in Army Group North's sector at the start of the campaign; an additional panzer division or two could have greatly reduced the number of Soviet troops who were able to successfully withdraw from the Smolensk pocket

a single extra panzer corps in 1941 offers the Germans a variety of strategic options that they had to pass on during the original campaign
 
More tanks would have been useless because the Germans were low on fuel, and just having more of them would have meant depleting oil reserves even faster than in OTL.

The Germans were not critically low on fuel until late in the campaign season, and that had more to do with grossly outrunning their rail heads than not physically having fuel available.

More panzer forces in the opening stages of the campaign may mean they capture more Soviet fuel supply dumps in tact as well
 

Deleted member 1487

Whilst I am aware of the light tanks flee to draw enemy to impale themselves on anti tank guns strategy; more armor would certainly have afforded the Germans more options, especially in Army Group North's sector at the start of the campaign; an additional panzer division or two could have greatly reduced the number of Soviet troops who were able to successfully withdraw from the Smolensk pocket

a single extra panzer corps in 1941 offers the Germans a variety of strategic options that they had to pass on during the original campaign
Sure...as an exploitation arm, not an AT platform. The issue though isn't specifically having more armor per division, it is having more divisions. The problem for the Germans is there is simply only so many divisions they could have formed in time, not just due to equipment but also trained quality manpower, and as it was the divisions they had weren't even fully equipped or trained to the same standard due to having effectively doubled the number of them in less than 12 months. They had to do more than just build more tanks, they needed more of everything and as it was they also needed tanks of pretty high quality to stand up to the rigors of the campaign and terrain in the East. Most did remarkably well considering the huge obstacles in front of them, while the masses of Soviet armor broke down and fell apart much much more quickly, often before even reaching the battlefield, including the new T-34s. In fact the Soviets prized their captured Pz IIIs because of their mechanical durability and rebuilt them with 76mm guns, the SU-76i. So more AFVs for the Germans wasn't the answer, as the quality was needed to actually be able to last, the Soviet style of more with lower quality didn't really work for them in 1941, even when they didn't have to travel hundreds of miles to advance in combat. So you can't simply wave your hands and say "two more panzer divisions" and have them magically appear, as it was the two extra divisions were trapped in the Balkans after invading Greece and needed time to move by sea back to Germany to refit and prepare for the campaign (2nd Panzer lost most of it's armor in the Mediterranean as the ships they were on were sunk by RN submarines) and they only showed up right before Operation Typhoon. Meanwhile as Barbarossa was launched multiple new Panzer divisions were forming, which meant forces at the front were denied replacement panzers and spare parts, as the new divisions gobbled them up. They of course then appeared in due course in 1942 and performed badly in their first operations due to inexperience.

The point being is that the German army was about as maximally expanded as it could be in Summer 1941 not just due to material issues. Plus in terms of what was going on in the wider war Panzer production had to compete with a lot of other stuff, like Uboats, trucks, aircraft, etc. while various divisions were diverted to invade the Balkans and fight in North Africa. It was zero sum. So you could have more mobile/panzer divisions in the East, but then they are denied for other operations.
 

Deleted member 1487

always think your thread on anti-tank rifle grenades would have been one of the major PODs of Barbarossa and hence WWII, the shock to Soviet system of infantry destroying tanks. along with of course tanks and AT guns.
Having just read an article on the history of the Panzerfaust there was no reason it couldn't have been made earlier, it was just that no one thought something like that was necessary until after dealing with the mass of Soviet tanks from late 1941 on. Certainly the AT rifle grenades would have helped a bit, but part of the problem was the lack of standardization for rifle grenade systems up until 1942 and the thought that they weren't necessary given how well the general AT systems they already had worked.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiessbecher

Things like the KV-1 and T-34 were unknown and regular AT rifles and cannons were more than sufficient to tackle the BT-7 and T-26. In that light it makes sense that the German army specifically did not develop AT rifle grenades as a waste of resources. Ironically it was the Waffen SS who first demanded them.

More panzer forces in the opening stages of the campaign may mean they capture more Soviet fuel supply dumps in tact as well
Soviet fuel was lower quality than the type the Germans ran on and was effectively useless without expensive and highly limited special additives and treatments, which of course was not available at the front and would take time behind the lines to make useful...unless used with Soviet equipment. Plus of course Soviet AFVs ran on diesel, the Germans on gasoline.
 
Sure...as an exploitation arm, not an AT platform. The issue though isn't specifically having more armor per division, it is having more divisions. The problem for the Germans is there is simply only so many divisions they could have formed in time, not just due to equipment but also trained quality manpower, and as it was the divisions they had weren't even fully equipped or trained to the same standard due to having effectively doubled the number of them in less than 12 months. They had to do more than just build more tanks, they needed more of everything and as it was they also needed tanks of pretty high quality to stand up to the rigors of the campaign and terrain in the East. Most did remarkably well considering the huge obstacles in front of them, while the masses of Soviet armor broke down and fell apart much much more quickly, often before even reaching the battlefield, including the new T-34s. In fact the Soviets prized their captured Pz IIIs because of their mechanical durability and rebuilt them with 76mm guns, the SU-76i. So more AFVs for the Germans wasn't the answer, as the quality was needed to actually be able to last, the Soviet style of more with lower quality didn't really work for them in 1941, even when they didn't have to travel hundreds of miles to advance in combat. So you can't simply wave your hands and say "two more panzer divisions" and have them magically appear, as it was the two extra divisions were trapped in the Balkans after invading Greece and needed time to move by sea back to Germany to refit and prepare for the campaign (2nd Panzer lost most of it's armor in the Mediterranean as the ships they were on were sunk by RN submarines) and they only showed up right before Operation Typhoon. Meanwhile as Barbarossa was launched multiple new Panzer divisions were forming, which meant forces at the front were denied replacement panzers and spare parts, as the new divisions gobbled them up. They of course then appeared in due course in 1942 and performed badly in their first operations due to inexperience.

The point being is that the German army was about as maximally expanded as it could be in Summer 1941 not just due to material issues. Plus in terms of what was going on in the wider war Panzer production had to compete with a lot of other stuff, like Uboats, trucks, aircraft, etc. while various divisions were diverted to invade the Balkans and fight in North Africa. It was zero sum. So you could have more mobile/panzer divisions in the East, but then they are denied for other operations.


Their slow production in the fall of 1940 was tied into them not being on full war economy or anything remotely close to it. Having them double their production, just say in the 4th quarter of 1940, when there was no land fighting going on anywhere for Germany gives them the equipment of 3 more panzer divisions

Manpower for those divisions as ~adders~ would be a problem; agreed, as Germany conscripted 85 percent of service age men by June 1941; the obvious solution is to convert an existing infantry corps to a tank corps Nov 1940 - Jun 22nd 1941 is plenty of time to complete this work and training so that the formation is familiar with their equipment as much as any of the other new divisions

Alternatively if you think its overburdening to the order of battle to have 3 more tank divisions, then they could be kept in strategic reserve as replacements to keep the line divisions fitter for action longer

I fail to see in any way how 450 extra tanks available at the start of barbarossa (even if just sitting in depots as available replacements) is not a significant strategic value for the Germans
 

Deleted member 1487

Their slow production in the fall of 1940 was tied into them not being on full war economy or anything remotely close to it.
That has been repeatedly disproven since the 1990s by economic historians using all the newly available/organized documents about the economy. They were fully mobilized (in terms of resources dedicated to war making) since 1938 and the glut of consumer goods available in 1940 is what was looted from occupied Western Europe.
The bigger reason for the relatively low output in a variety of sectors was mismanagement and disorder during mobilization for the unexpected European wide war that broke out in 1939 as well as need to pay the Soviets for their resource deliveries, plus of course the mess of integrating the occupied economies of Western Europe into the German war economy, which included rebuilding all the infrastructure was the damaged during the invasion so that they could exploit those economies and launch the Battle of Britain.

Having them double their production, just say in the 4th quarter of 1940, when there was no land fighting going on anywhere for Germany gives them the equipment of 3 more panzer divisions
Completely impossible given the economic situation. Read Tooze's "Wages of Destruction" and Overy's "War and Economy in the Third Reich".

Manpower for those divisions as ~adders~ would be a problem; agreed, as Germany conscripted 85 percent of service age men by June 1941; the obvious solution is to convert an existing infantry corps to a tank corps Nov 1940 - Jun 22nd 1941 is plenty of time to complete this work and training so that the formation is familiar with their equipment as much as any of the other new divisions
Again not possible due to the required equipment and there was a need for every single infantry division available. I don't think you understand how much the German army expanded in November 1940-June 1941 and that they were tapped out getting ready for Barbarossa as they invaded the Balkans and joined the Italians in North Africa. Check out the Germany and the Second World War series on that, specifically volume IV covers the invasion of the USSR and preparations for it.

Alternatively if you think its overburdening to the order of battle to have 3 more tank divisions, then they could be kept in strategic reserve as replacements to keep the line divisions fitter for action longer
I don't necessarily think that, I think it was impossible to build 3 more panzer divisions in the time frame.

I fail to see in any way how 450 extra tanks available at the start of barbarossa (even if just sitting in depots as available replacements) is not a significant strategic value for the Germans
Not just tanks, but AT guns, trucks, support personnel, corps personnel, experienced officers, etc.
They built 10 new Panzer divisions for the invasion IOTL by cutting in half the existing 10 panzer divisions of 1940 and reducing AFV allotment by half. Rommel's additional corps was also built up over the course of 1941 on top of that, which was a major burden. You don't think if they could have they would have built up even more motorized/mechanized forces? As it was they were already panicked that they diluted the Panzer forces too much by their expansion.
 
Historically the Germans did consolidate in August-September on the Moscow axis. That got them the really punishing Soviet offensives that cost them some of the worst casualties of the campaign to that point. Offensive action on the other hand on the flanks got much better casualty ratios and disrupted Soviet attacks so badly that they were launched weakly and disorganized, costing them more than if they were able to take time to plan out the offensive and mitigate the problems of the less well trained forces they were raising at that point. The more time they wait for Leningrad, the more time the Soviets build up defenses and raise more forces to hold the city, as well as either evacuate industry or build more weapons on site. Counterpunching in 1941 isn't going to yield anything like the Kiev or Vyazma pockets and only gives the Soviets time to mobilize their reserves after which any campaign is going to be a long costly slog and probably ultimately unwinnable due to US entry and the very thin margin for victory thereafter.

If the Germans have committed their resources for the war against the Soviets, rather then putting them into the build-up for the war against the Anglo-Americans as they were in OTL, none of these objections are fatal: the Germans would actually have the replacements to make up for their August-September losses against the Soviet counter-offensive on the Moscow axis (and the Soviet losses also heavily weakened the Soviet forces along the Moscow-axis, setting up the Soviets for their own defeats at Vyazma and Bryansk), the whole reason was because they were taking more limited actions to destroy Soviet forces in exposed positions as I proposed rather then try to do the impossible and win the war in a single swoop (and again, their victories there conditioned the success at Vyazma and Bryansk of their subsequent offensive toward Moscow), and the claim the Germans defensive action won't have outsized impact on Soviet combat capability is both unsubstantiated and in contradiction to history: when the Germans inflicted just such a defeat upon the Soviets at 2nd Kharkov, the Soviets were so badly weakened that it opened the door to the subsequent German advance to the Caucasus and Stalingrad. While the campaign would indeed be a long-costly slog, as I already observed that was always going to be the case given the size and strength of the USSR. The German belief that it wouldn't was predicated both on the USSR being weaker then it was and themselves being stronger then they actually were. The Germans refusal to accept this and continuous attempts at quickly knocking out the USSR in one season to is what led to their defeat.

While it is true that in the context of Germany being still at war with the UK with heavy US support and eventual entry, a multi-year campaign with a maximum effort against the USSR that consumes all the Reich's reserves is likely to end in German defeat anyways regardless of what happens in the East, that was liable to always be the case in such a context. The smart choice there is not to attack the Soviets at all.
 
Last edited:
I disagree that it was impossible for them to make more than 120 tanks a month in 4th quarter 1940

My reading on German tank production was that the armaments office, mixed in with Gorings office where woefully ineffecient and that their batch ordering schemes and refusal to freeze designs left factories dormant or in wasted retooling periods for extended periods of time, on top of the factories not being on a war shift schedule

The panzer 4 series E was ready for production by 4th quarter 1940, and Germany produced 30 per month between Oct 1940 and the start of Barbarossa, making an additional 1 tank per day was well within the slack of the factories

Panzer 3 design was not frozen creating gross loss of possible production output, but had it been frozen to the H series design and the factories put onto war shifts the additional 3 tanks per day could have been produced

leave the whole idea of extra divisions out, they could have been retained in depots as spares/replacements for the line divisions
 

Deleted member 1487

If the Germans have committed their resources for the war against the Soviets, rather then putting them into the build-up for the war against the Anglo-Americans as they were in OTL, none of these objections are fatal: the Germans would actually have the replacements to make up for their August-September losses against the Soviet counter-offensive on the Moscow axis (and the Soviet losses also heavily weakened the Soviet forces along the Moscow-axis, setting up the Soviets for their own defeats at Vyazma and Bryansk), the whole reason was because they were taking more limited actions to destroy Soviet forces in exposed positions as I proposed rather then try to do the impossible and win the war in a single swoop (and again, their victories there conditioned the success at Vyazma and Bryansk of their subsequent offensive toward Moscow), and the claim the Germans defensive action won't have outsized impact on Soviet combat capability is both unsubstantiated and in contradiction to history: when the Germans inflicted just such a defeat upon the Soviets at 2nd Kharkov, the Soviets were so badly weakened that it opened the door to the subsequent German advance to the Caucasus and Stalingrad. While the campaign would indeed be a long-costly slog, as I already observed that was always going to be the case given the size and strength of the USSR. The German belief that it wouldn't was predicated both on the USSR being weaker then it was and themselves being stronger then they actually were. The Germans refusal to accept this and continuous attempts at quickly knocking out the USSR in one season to is what led to their defeat.
I agree that it was a serious mistake to prioritize building new divisions rather than keeping existing ones in combat up to strength, especially once it was clear the campaign was going to be longer and harder than anticipated.

Certainly Soviet losses in the offensives in August-September (not just on the Moscow axis) weakened them, but it was more than just their losses that did them in, as the Germans themselves were reinforced with fresh divisions, the 2nd and 5th Panzer, who were fully up to strength and probably as strong individually as the average Panzer corps at the time even with the limited reinforcements they got in September, which against the forces the Soviets had arrayed against them coupled with operational surprise yielded big benefits in the October pockets.

The limited operations along the Moscow axis in October-September was in response to the series of threats they faced as a result of the heavy offensives the Soviets launched that pushed serious bulges into their lines. They were a defensive reaction rather than per a specific strategy/operational plan. The post-Smolensk pocket period was supposed to be a pause on that axis to clean up the flanks with the better part of their mobile forces and refit the worn down divisions left behind before the push on Moscow, but the Soviets denied them that opportunity and instead wore them down even worse and the exchange rate was considerably worse than the Germans got earlier and later when attacking. The comparison with 2nd Kharkov/Case Blue isn't necessarily similar because the Soviets took proportionally much worse losses there than during their offensives in August-September 1941, while inflicting worse losses on the Germans in 1941 than in 1942. I mean Glantz claims 100k casualties in August-September 1941, while 2nd Kharkov only inflicted 20k-30k casualties on the Germans.

The Germans were left much stronger in 1942 and the Soviets FAR weaker in Ukraine than they were on the main axis, plus after 2nd Kharkov the Germans launched two more preparatory offensives before Case Blue after Kharkov that weakened them even further, while Stalin denied them replacements to shore up the Moscow defenses. Meanwhile in October 1941 the Soviet forces along the Moscow axis had gotten reinforcements and were stronger in raw numbers and proportionally than the Soviet forces left in Ukraine in June 1942 right before Case Blue.

As to winning the war outright in one campaign, that wasn't going to happen, but taking Moscow would have been a moral wound to the USSR that would have started the process of unraveling the Soviet regime and it's ability to continue to resist. Of course IMHO October is took late to pull that off and while at that point the best bet was to launch the October pocket offensives and then transition to defense when the weather made advancing impossible, as any further effort would run into all the reinforcements the Soviets had been able to mobilize and bring in the meantime, which were too much to overcome with the resources and time left before winter hit.

IMHO, as we've argued before and would only be retreading ground we covered in previous threads, launching Moscow instead of the Kiev and Leningrad offensives in August-September was really the only way to have enough time to take Moscow without the weather intervening and at a point when Soviet forces were weaker than they would become by October.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/operation-typhoon-september-1941.438921/

While it is true that in the context of Germany being still at war with the UK with heavy US support and eventual entry, a multi-year campaign with a maximum effort against the USSR that consumes all the Reich's reserves is likely to end in German defeat anyways regardless of what happens in the East, that was liable to always be the case in such a context. The smart choice there is not to attack the Soviets at all.
Agreed, turning East was a terrible strategic choice even at the time without hindsight.
That said even with the defeat of the USSR, which was potentially possible with better choices in the 1941 campaign, it is still more likely than not that with US entry Germany is still probably going to lose the war, just on a longer time frame and much higher losses to the Wallies.
 
I agree that it was a serious mistake to prioritize building new divisions rather than keeping existing ones in combat up to strength, especially once it was clear the campaign was going to be longer and harder than anticipated.

Certainly Soviet losses in the offensives in August-September (not just on the Moscow axis) weakened them, but it was more than just their losses that did them in, as the Germans themselves were reinforced with fresh divisions, the 2nd and 5th Panzer, who were fully up to strength and probably as strong individually as the average Panzer corps at the time even with the limited reinforcements they got in September, which against the forces the Soviets had arrayed against them coupled with operational surprise yielded big benefits in the October pockets.

Which is yet more argument that waiting until October was the right move, as in August/September, the Germans would not have those reinforcements and the Germans would not have operational surprise.

The limited operations along the Moscow axis in October-September was in response to the series of threats they faced as a result of the heavy offensives the Soviets launched that pushed serious bulges into their lines. They were a defensive reaction rather than per a specific strategy/operational plan.

Well, to be specific, they were a defensive reaction as a result of the failure of the strategic-operational plan. According to the plan, after all, the Soviets weren't supposed to have the forces to launch those heavy offensives.

The Germans were left much stronger in 1942

Compared to both OTL June 1941 and IATL 1942, the Germans were vastly weaker. This can be seen by the fact they could only launch an operation in the south. This in turn was a direct consequence of their decision to go for broke against Moscow the previous year.

and the Soviets FAR weaker in Ukraine than they were on the main axis,

As a result of 2nd Kharkov.

plus after 2nd Kharkov the Germans launched two more preparatory offensives before Case Blue after Kharkov that weakened them even further,

Those two offensives were not separate from Case Blue. They were an intimate part of it and their success too was conditioned by the German victory at 2nd Kharkov.

Meanwhile in October 1941 the Soviet forces along the Moscow axis had gotten reinforcements and were stronger in raw numbers and proportionally than the Soviet forces left in Ukraine in June 1942 right before Case Blue.

Soviet forces facing the Germans along the Moscow axis at the start of Typhoon were considerably weaker then those at the start of Case Blue in absolute terms at 1.7 million vs 1.2 million. Proportionally to the Germans, they were about the same (going with worst-case numbers for the Germans) when considering the inclusion of Axis minors in Operation Blau. German forces for Blau could have been considerably stronger had they preserved their strength by stopping on the Mius instead of pushing all the way to Rostov and kept their replacements priorities open during 1941. Once again, German decisions to go-for-broke and overextend proved to be a mistake.

As to winning the war outright in one campaign, that wasn't going to happen, but taking Moscow would have been a moral wound to the USSR that would have started the process of unraveling the Soviet regime and it's ability to continue to resist. Of course IMHO October is took late to pull that off and while at that point the best bet was to launch the October pocket offensives and then transition to defense when the weather made advancing impossible, as any further effort would run into all the reinforcements the Soviets had been able to mobilize and bring in the meantime, which were too much to overcome with the resources and time left before winter hit.

In August-September OTL, Soviet forces are stronger and German forces are weaker then they would be by October. It was not weather and against the fiercer Soviet resistance without and with the German logistical chain much weaker, the Germans would hit the same culmination point they did OTL. The weather was not what made the difference (the Germans were able to operate just fine through the October mud in 1942 and '43 and even in 1941 until their logistics collapsed they were making fantastic progress through it without) and amounts to a massive red-herring which distracts from the logistical collapse caused by the Germans blowing past their culmination point, resulting in logistical collapse, that were the real reason.

IMHO, as we've argued before and would only be retreading ground we covered in previous threads, launching Moscow instead of the Kiev and Leningrad offensives in August-September was really the only way to have enough time to take Moscow without the weather intervening and at a point when Soviet forces were weaker than they would become by October.

Yes, and as was the case then your supposition is fundamentally based on the same ground as that of the German generals at the time: the belief that the Soviets are weaker then they actually were and the Germans were stronger then they actually were. But they weren't and they weren't, so belief that the Germans can take Moscow in August-September is largely built more on wishful thinking then solid analysis. As Sun Tzu observed says "A victorious warrior wins and then goes to war. A defeated warrior goes to war and then seeks to win". Or in lay mans terms: a successful campaign is the result of choices made before it is executed, not during. This is a strategic principle that was as real in 1941 (or 2019) as it was in 500 BC.
 
Last edited:

thaddeus

Donor
always think your thread on anti-tank rifle grenades would have been one of the major PODs of Barbarossa and hence WWII, the shock to Soviet system of infantry destroying tanks. along with of course tanks and AT guns.

Having just read an article on the history of the Panzerfaust there was no reason it couldn't have been made earlier, it was just that no one thought something like that was necessary until after dealing with the mass of Soviet tanks from late 1941 on. Certainly the AT rifle grenades would have helped a bit, but part of the problem was the lack of standardization for rifle grenade systems up until 1942 and the thought that they weren't necessary given how well the general AT systems they already had worked.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiessbecher

Things like the KV-1 and T-34 were unknown and regular AT rifles and cannons were more than sufficient to tackle the BT-7 and T-26. In that light it makes sense that the German army specifically did not develop AT rifle grenades as a waste of resources. Ironically it was the Waffen SS who first demanded them.

thanks for the link. maybe the LW could have promoted an AT rifle grenade? for paratrooper use?
 
It could have succeeded. Get an earlier start by skipping the adventure in Greece, and avoid the diversion south to Kiev. Take Moscow in November and then watch the Red Army batter itself to death during the winter trying to retake it. Finish mopping up in 1942.
 
Top